The Hardest Truth About Prefabrication: It's Not the Technology

Josh 0:00

We we we want we want this to look sexy. Prefabrication is not that, right? Like we we want this this building gonna look like this, right? And they're grateful that there are some people doing that. And I and I remember hearing that a lot. Well, we don't want cookie cutter, okay? Like it has to be identical, right? I'm like, well, it doesn't have to be. And they're like, what? You know, and I was like, and so then I started like doing some historic, like, okay, like let me understand some construction history behind it. Like, what is what is prefabrication anyway? Like, that is a whole nother probably uh podcast, if you've not done yet, yet of who is defining the word prefab, modular, industrialized construction and what fits into those things.

Ryan 1:05

I am Ryan Ware, and I'm looking forward to this conversation. We actually scheduled this some time ago, but um I was once told this gentleman is is like my lost brother uh when it comes to prefabrication and prefabrication stories. So um I have with me today Josh Menzinger, and he is the with integrity built, and he has 20 plus years really focusing on offsite construction and prefabrication. So um that'll be a lot, uh lot of our conversation today. But Josh, how are you doing?

Josh 1:36

Yeah, man, it's a really great day. Um, you know, I've I've made a recent transition, as you just said, integrity built. And so um a lot of a lot of newness, but the irony is uh, you know, even though prefab, as we know, is new, it's not, right? And so it might be a new company and uh a new title uh, you know, that's a little bit higher than I've than I've had previously, but it's really the same stuff, but with a a little bit of newness of changing things in. So pretty exciting time for me, man. So I'm I'm actually doing really great.

Ryan 2:08

Yeah. Well, I'm glad um kind of catching you in this transition period for for yourself and your new role. Um, we've gotten to talk from some of your past role and just hear a little bit about your story, but I don't want to tell your story. So before we dive into activating curiosity, tell a little bit about your past, kind of um what got you into construction, what led you into prefab, or anywhere you want to tell your your journey. No, that's good actually.

Josh 2:33

Uh what got me into construction. I think that's actually ironically the same thing that got me into prefab. Um so uh California kid ironically uh grew up in the 90s, uh graduated in 97 from LAUSD, and you know, being a Los Angeles kid uh right by the ocean, um, I mean, just fit the total persona of that. Hair was a lot blonder back then. And um, man, I geeked out, man. It was the IT and internet era, and you know, I was 18 years old, and I got hired on right out of high school uh as a computer teacher for LAUSD without a college degree because teachers didn't know how to use computers, they didn't know how to run computer labs. Schools were just getting bonds, right? And uh our school had had the bond, and so I was a part of the team that actually, you know, installed a Cat 5 cabling and I got Windows NT certified before I graduated. And so all that was kind of happening through the school just so we could actually help our school, our high school, kind of transition. And and uh my parents, all the Texans that kind of hate the Californians that uh have moved to Texas, I said, Well, you can blame them. They started at 98. And uh I so I moved out here and you know, I went from the ocean to you know East Texas, where all the big pine trees and you know, they we had one blinking light and a McDonald's, and um there was no computers, man, just to be honest. There was there was there was no work for me with my skill set. Nobody even knew what a Windows NT certification was. And I was like, shit, I I have to get back to California as fast as I can get there. You know, how do I make money enough to kind of get there and and feel safe, you know, going back to there a horrible neighborhood, but I knew I couldn't have lived by the ocean, uh, at least where my parents had me, you know. And um, of course, what are you gonna do in Texas to get cash right away without, you know, a degree was construction. And um, man, I I first job was uh commercial roofing and I was mopping hot tar and it was the summer. And I was like, man, there is no way I am gonna do this long term, man. And um, so I was like, my buddy was like, uh got me into fire protection. And um, so I was like, okay, I'm I'm not. So that got me to Dallas Fort Worth outside of the the East Texas roofing company. And um, so man, I'm I'm hanging pipe and you know, cutting drops and and working for a great Dallas uh that's still actually in business uh today. Um, but I just knew long term, like it wasn't me. You know, I was I was this computer guy that that loved technology and integration and stuff like that. And um, you know, before I knew it, um a buddy of mine was telling me about this prefabricated um light gauge metal trust manufacturer that also did metal walls. And so I was kind of like, you know, Googling and checking about, you know, like carpenters and how much they make. And I'm like, man, that shit's not enough money either. But then I was like, I was willing to hear him out. And he's like, hey man, sales are different than the field. And I was like, I don't know, you know, am I that guy? Am I not that guy? And and um, you know, I'm pretty dynamic. And so I went to hear the company out, see the software that they were having, the innovation that they were pushing. And man, I was like, okay, this actually feels like something that I can really get involved in. Where, you know, all this, all to be honest, all the shit that I hated about being at a job site, it was like, I loved walking the plant. I loved, you know, sometimes even helping out in the plant. But it was the technology on the inside of the factory that was looking at engineering and how do we engineer a, you know, a roof truss system that, you know, and how and how how can we be competitive against the other guy besides just being faster? Okay, we're going to use this extra bracing here so that we can drop the bottom core is a different. And so I I just started working my career in this uh side of the field. And again, like age panelized walls, uh, you know, and load-bearing like age 20 years ago was not heard of. And um, and so I was kind of really on the cutting edge of that. And it was uh, it was such a great career, man. I I lived that uh era out for about 15 years. Um, and just I a lot of the struggles of implementing even panelized walls was was going back to the architects and the structural engineers and and getting them bought into integrating. And we run into this time, the same problem almost all the time, right? It's uh you want to implement it. And so then the general contractor's like, well, if the architect will do it, then we're okay. And then the architect's saying, so then we start working the architect, and the architect's like, well, like let's get the plans developed, and if the general contractor wants it, then we'll be okay with it. And so it was just this constant back and forth, right? And and carpenters and division five and nine guys that are traditionally doing the prefab panelized wall solutions, um, you know, they weren't getting brought in for design assists or delegated design at the end of the day. And so I I kind of was like, well, shit, I see all these MVP guys getting this and they're getting to the table early, like all these things. And I was like, man, I have to beat the system. And how am I gonna do that? So I really developed a delegated design design assist for low bearing light gauge panels. And I started working the structural engineers, but I started working the design build pursuits and progressive design build. And I had to understand past the you know, the design bid build scenarios and out of because that's really what we were doing. We were just trying to convert traditionally, you know, designed projects into prefab. Right. And so it was asked backwards, right? Like we all know that now, but over the past 20 years, that wasn't that wasn't the case. Right. And so it was it was really exciting because I I had to start something from scratch, you know, and and start to build what would the conditions look like for a design assist. And we weren't a structural engineer, and so you're using somebody else and then bringing yourself in, you know, and and creating really targeted value designs for these prefabricated products and and schedule, you know, analysis before there was even a schedule created. Right. Um, and and it was really cutting edge and exciting, which ultimately led to a lot of success with me with one architect specifically. And I kind of really became his guy. And there was a proprietary system out there on a on a load-bearing solution that was trying to go public and you know, they were they were advancing across the nation. And um, you know, I was kind of brought in as the well, shit, this guy knows his stuff. He can value engineer to that kind of stuff because I had that experience back from when I was doing the trusses and things like that. So I was like, man, they're using too much tube steel. They're doing this, they're trying to make it easy for them in the factory. They only want this floor system. They really weren't looking at the critical paths and trying to come up with solutions for projects. And so this architect really just fell in love with me. Well, he got connected with another architecture firm that wanted to open up a prefabricated uh volumetric and pod manufacturing facility. And um, so him as an architect uh in the industry, so much respect for him. And and I know he's kind of retired now and out, but um, man, it was it was really cool for me because I got that phone call and and I was 40 at the time. I'm I'm you know 46 now. And and he's like, hey, dude, I I'd love I want you to come join me, man. I want you to be the secondhand guy because like I need somebody who can build this and do this. And but it was a big shift for me because I had built my whole career on Division V and Nine, man. And so now I was I was like, I'm up, I'm about to get into pods, which means I'm in finishes and I'm in MEPs. And man, do I want to reinvent myself? But really ironically, by that time, Ryan, like FrameCAD was like pushing like crazy, right? They were they were out selling role formers to everybody to get into low-bearing light gauge, which it was that's a good thing, right? It's it's a good, not just them specifically, but the fact that panelized walls was becoming more like a commodity is great to know that the industry was embracing some form of prefabrication in such a way that that so many people wanted to figure out how they can get involved with that. Right. Um, and so that was really this pivotal moment at 40 to say, well, man, I can sit here and kind of coast into the division five and nine, you know, panelized wall world. Um, or I can actually like push myself and and go into learning, you know, new trades and and new solutions. And sure enough, I did, right? That's that's where I ended up. And um, and it was a phenomenal run. You know, it fucking unfortunately started COVID, right? Like literally, I I accepted the job in January and March COVID hit. And it was like, holy shit, I remember getting a phone call from the CEO of this architecture firm saying, Did we just fuck up? And I'm thinking, did I just fuck up? Like, do I need to go back to the drywall industry? And I'm am I even gonna get a job because of COVID? And right. And he said, Man, you know, if if this doesn't work, it's not gonna work for anything or anybody, right? Like at the end of the day, it'll all go out of business if like not just prefab, but either the world's gonna move on or it won't. So they stuck to it. And man, dude, it was it was an amazing run. Uh it it just, it really was. And uh, man, we were pushing out before it was all said and done, you know, roughly about 50 bathroom pods every two weeks once the line had kind of started. And and I kind of pushed that really long story to kind of go back into where I really started and how I got into construction and how I got into prefab because it was it was the internet era of the boom, and and it was like I saw what we were what I was capable of doing as an 18-year-old and looking at adults that didn't want to embrace internet. They were like, no, no, no, this isn't fad. It's it's not gonna last. Right. And I've I've always reminded myself, whether it's the new app or whether it's a new prefabricated product into the industry, um, to be like, man, I I don't want to be that guy. I really want to live every day that I can, especially in the industry. And sometimes I regretted going into construction because I thought I was gonna, you know, be this big chief technology officer at a big corporation in California when I when I was a teenager, you know. And but now that I'm I'm here, I realize, and not that those people don't have impact, but I found my impact and being 20 plus years in and and and being, you know, even here at Integrity Built, who, you know, primarily was a you know division five and nine specialty subcontractor, and and their CEO wanted to truly embrace prefab. And so got into panelized walls and exterior bypass panels and bathroom pods. Like you don't see very many quote unquote, you know, specialty subcontractors embracing that much of the trade in prefabrication. Um and it might seem like um, you know, we are, you know, kind of like a jack of all trades, but we're not, because the way I look at it is it all of those items revolve around the walls, right? And and so whether it was like, you know, the company that was with previously before here, whether you're you're prefabricating just this section of the wall or putting all those walls together, it it it with finishes on the inside, it ultimately does revolve around the success of integrating as much as we possibly can and um and kind of moving in. So man, I'll stop there because man, my story uh is long for 20 plus years, man. Um but it is exciting, man, to to be where I'm at.

Ryan 13:22

Yeah. Well, no, I I'm glad you shared it because we all have we all have a path that we've taken. And I heard, you know, these are the parts that that I heard kind of get you into in today's world, which I we're we're both kind of in that Gen X, you know, I'm a Gen Xer, you know, and we're used to the technology accelerating at a rapid pace through our life and seeing constant change. Well, you know, you might have wanted to be that CTO, but the realistic side of it is this convergence of all things really coming into the construction industry. So technology shifting through our careers, um, what you saw, you know, in the factories to um, you know, how they were using technology and getting things sort of engineered through that piece. That's sort of where I started with uh direct digital manufacturing and then getting into architecture and transitioning from architecture into prefab. It's it's all you know, your story is one where it's like, hey, I didn't I didn't just say I needed to be one thing. It was like the world was going to evolve and so was I going to evolve, which I think is you know a a tremendous you know attribute to have where you don't get stuck when things are when things are constantly shifting. Because you mentioned a lot of great things. This gets into you know you know the meat of the conversation, um, which is that problem that you're aiming to solve. And I I know for you, Josh, like if you know, when you started in the technology, you described everything you went through, um, and you even started getting into some of the things we get to deeper in this uh conversation. But um as you got into to the prefab side and taking that technology piece towards all the things you were discussing, the integration piece, working with architects, trying to understand their mindsets. Talk talk about that that problem that you're really aiming to solve personally, but also as a as a company.

Josh 15:20

Yeah. Oh man. That's uh it it is a a good and deep question for sure. In in the essence that integration is really the key. Um and and that is that is the biggest problem that I feel that we are all trying to solve. And it especially within the prefabrication you know, mark you know, sector as a whole. Um, I I still feel that our our delivery models of construction uh fail us often. Uh, you know, at the end of the day, construction. I I really I I'll remember the first time I learned about you know IPD and even like an IPD light, which is very similar to like a progressive design build you know solution. And I said to myself, okay, shit, here, here we go. This is this is something that allows us to look at how we can deliver this project without looking at it like, hey, no, this was their fault, no, this was their fault. I'm gonna sue you, you're gonna sue me. Like it, it, it, it gave me hope that we would progress and push teams together to actively come together to solve problems. And and and it's like in construction, like anything else. Like, usually when people find the right teams of designers, builders, subcontractors, regardless of whether what the delivery method is called, it can even be design bid build. I'm just being honest. I can look back on my career and find some design bid build projects that went prefab. They might have run some of the best that we ever had. Why? Because the team collectively came together and said, we want to do something fucking epic here, and we're gonna work together. The designer is gonna say, these are gonna be my constraints, and and the general contractor is gonna push their subs to do this. And how can we integrate here? And how can we do pool planning to really lean this thing out and and smush the schedule down? And what can you do over here with this time? And then before you know it, you have all these different solutions and the project is is just it's killing it, right? Um, and and it's crazy because I think too often that man, and it's hard, right? Because we live in capitalism, right? We're we're not, you know, we're we're we're here to make money. And and I think that that's I think some of the the hard parts about a lot of our industry as a whole, because sometimes, you know, we're we're taking money from this guy's pocket, you know, and and this guy's pocket, and then they don't want to do things anymore the way that they did because it's like, okay, well, shit, we all have money to be made. We're, you know, we're not nonprof, I tell our team members often, you know, we're not a nonprofit organization, right? Like we can't, we can't give away services for free. We can't sit on design meetings, you know, endlessly without having, you know, real impact, right? And that impact should come back to how do we manufacture our products better inside, you know, the factory with DFMA solutions and things like that. And so to just sit on calls but sit on calls or something like that. And so I would say we still have a lot of work to do. Uh, one of the big things that I'm always constantly trying to do is to educate, just to be honest. Um, I think early on in my career, again, kind of going back to almost the capitalistic, I I was young and I was about me. Uh, I was seeking after my glory and everything that I could do to make myself better and my name better. And, you know, I I love it. My son's football, man. He's O-line. And uh man, that is that is one of the most humbling positions. Like the running backs get all the credit, the quarterbacks get the credit, the wide receivers, and man, we went to playoffs, and dude, my son is fucking stoked, man. He is happy, he's sophomore, he's you know, varsity, you know, and and he is just crushing it, but he has no desire. It's all about the team for him. And unfortunately for me, I wanted to be the D end that had the sacks in high school, and I wanted to get the praise and the or the tight end. And and I didn't realize that until I was about halfway through my career, that and actually all these secrets that made me successful, because I was, I was extremely successful early, was like, gosh, if I would actually just share this stuff out, it's like everyone can be successful. Right. And it's like we keep a lot of these secrets, some I feel like in prefab. And I'd say what's been really exciting over the past, honestly, I feel like it's only been the past five years, even, to where like I remember when three of the other bathroom pod manufacturers, we all kind of came together about five years ago and said, as executives, and said, Can I turn your plant? Can I trigger your plant? Can we just sit together and talk about, you know, what's going wrong with all of us and what's going right, how we can impact the industry better so that, you know, like the next pod company doesn't go out of business, uh, that we don't need that in the industry because that happens too often. Uh, you know, and we're all fighting over the same things because the industry hasn't embraced it enough. And kind of lastly, I would say outside of the education that um, you know, and and a buddy of mine, Ron, I'm really proud of this dude. You know, he's a little bit older than me. And uh you need to get him on on your podcast too. And um he he teaches a class there at ASU out of Phoenix. And uh, you know, he came and had me um, you know, teach a class. And I've done that before for structural engineering firms. I've done it actually a structural engineering school in Cleveland, Ohio. Um, you know, BYU has reached out uh for their architecture school and had me come in and like do a prefab lesson because and and that's the sad part. And and what I loved about what Ron did for ASU was he actually created a class for prefab. It wasn't a breakout session in project management 101. It wasn't like an architectural, like it was a legitimate class that was a part of the degree program. And it's like you start to see from the colleges, and and I've talked to so many um, you know, people are coming out of you know, solid schools, like AM's construction management school out of Texas, that that they don't they don't dive into this industry enough.

unknown 21:06

Right.

Josh 21:07

It's almost like a field trip, you know, and it's like, okay, this is prefab and you got two hours on it and it's out. And it's like, if this is the future, why don't we have a whole program dedicated to prefab? You know, like like you tell like going back to like even the CTO, I wasn't even thinking about that, but like they had to develop degrees for, you know, to eventually get to, you know, chief technology officers and what's this degree plan look like? We aren't even thinking about that on the prefab level, you know. But the the trade schools aren't even thinking about that level. How do we how do we teach inside trade school, you know, even for carpenters or electricians or plumbers, such a way that they know how to read plans so that they can see prefab and not be scared of it and say, okay, this is what my integration looks like. Yeah. And and we have to go backwards on some of that stuff. And so as I get older, I'd say I'm I'm more excited about it's less about me and and my name and my legacy and actually. Making more impact to leave something behind, hopefully, uh for the next generations. Um you know. Yeah.

Ryan 22:07

Well, I I mean, look, you're you're human, so that when you're young, that personal side is it it's it is an important part of who we are because we believe it's it becomes our identity. Like you're gonna go become this, so that you know your true your job is your identity. And when that shifts, you're like, oh, I just lost a piece to myself, which is you know, change. Um, but you said, you know, I love the educational piece, but as you got, you know, went through that um those thoughts, it was hitting me that one I I say this routinely, we do a terrible job in this industry on the education side. We treat it as if a one-hour CEU is like that's how we're taught, that's how we learn. We check a box, we move on, we go to a job site, we go to a factory, we tour it. That's just piquing curiosity. That isn't learning something new, that isn't understanding that the first time you do it, you're gonna suck. Like all of all of those things. And when it comes to off-site and and prefabrication, like I don't, I don't know. I keep having these conversations, like thinking about architecture school, and we took a class called means and methods. Well, everything means and methods is what the contractor was responsible for, and we weren't supposed to really be touching it, and we just get to cover our, you know, cover ourselves by saying, hey, that's means and methods. Well, the reality is, as you said, methods of construction is one area, and with the levels of prefab that you're discussing from single trade to a multi-trade solution, and tying that in with a delivery model that is also potentially new that somebody hasn't seen. This is where our minds like, well, you're not gonna learn it in a cat classroom. It is going to be something that you're going to have to explore, you're going to have to test. You're the capitalist side, we want to make money, right? We all want to make money. And we see, you know, every off-site group is like, the fact, you know, we're worried the factories aren't going to make it. We're worried that they won't be around when the project comes. All of the risks, all of those things start to come through our mindset, which you know gets us into the next the next really piece, which is those obstacles and barriers. They just constantly are coming up for us in our life. And I know I've been around it. And and I spent most of my time in pre-fabrication training. Like it's just like you said, it's an educational piece of like, this this will be new. How do you need to think about a delivery model? That design assist piece that you were discussing. It you know, I you you mentioned some of the obstacles and some of those barriers, but um, you've been in it 20 years, I've been in it 20 plus years, they're not changing. Like, I don't know how you feel about this, Josh, but I they're human, they're the human piece. It's not the solution, it's not the technology, it's not any of these other things. It's like how have you started to look at how you're addressing, as you said, this educational piece, this human side of that change, when these obstacles are coming, coming up.

Josh 25:30

Yeah, that's that's good. I, you know, as you were even just describing that out, I was thinking, it it's wild. Um I can remember back to when even the means and methods comment. Um I remember being 20 years ago and pitching panelized wall to a general contractor and then thinking that, you know, a panelized wall was the stupidest thing ever, right? Carpenters, you know, this 20 years ago, you know, they're like, what do you need to build this in a factory for? Why would I pay shipping? Like, that's just stupid. Like I remember all of those comments, right? Yep. Um, and and I think, I think, and it and it you're so man, you hit that on. And ironically, I think too often we feel that it's the next best software, it's the next best product, it's the next best company that can finally break open the gates of prefab and allow it to be integrated, you know, more rapidly. Um, but I think, and and and again, this I think goes back to what we all see on all the Mackenzie reports and all that shit about, you know, construction is so far behind on implementing um, you know, the most innovative things, you know, compared to where every other market sector is. And that I think is, I think that actually goes back to the fact that what you just said, um, and I've nearly never put two and two together that way, but it's the humans that are stopping it. And we know that, right? We know that there's certain humans that embrace it and don't embrace it and stuff like that. But in general, I think because the industry has has had this industry for so long, right? Of building and the way things are built, and how do we mitigate risk? And how do we how do we move forward and do something that we know we're gonna make money on? Well, because we've done it in the past. It's like you said, like, how many companies are willing to invest and open up a prefabricated company? If you were to tell them you're one, you're gonna lose X. Like, why would I do that? And and the irony is every other industry, you're gonna lose X for three years. Like it's it's uh it's that's all of the startups in any other industry even outside of construction. Um, but what was exciting as I started to think about that is as you mentioned that comment was I have more excitement today than I had 10 years with it because there's actually human beings that are taking leadership and executive positions and they're willing to take the risks. The reason that they're willing to take those risks and embrace it and push it down the chains to say, no, you guys will implement X amount of prefab per projects per year is because they're like me and they actually saw it and didn't just have the class, like you said, the kind of a CYA. And they said, Well, shit, I remember being a part of a project and it wasn't just like some field trip to where we saw this, this, and this happen. We saw this, this, and this. And they're wanting to change the companies for a positive, right? Like the new leaders that are coming into the architecture firms as principals, the new uh they're they're pushing to be on boards to say, well, how can we start to integrate these things into our designs? You start to see um, you know, the new, you know, mid to late 40s and 50s guys taking executive positions at general contractors and things like that.

Ryan 28:48

Right.

Josh 28:48

They're saying, well, I I don't, I don't want to just fit into the system of being overhead and being more like, you know, CMAR without being CMAR. I really want to embrace this and how can we actually diversify ourselves to go buy a piece of property and build this building and finance the building and build it faster than anybody else and go sell it. They don't want to just be the GCs, right? And right and how are they doing that? Well, they got to beat the next guy. So they're thinking, well, I know prefab works. Let's look at it in this market sector. Let's do this. And they're taking those risks. And then you have guys like myself that are in the actual market sector of building it and doing it. And now we're getting to that level of prefab to be like, this has been a big problem for so long, and we're not leaving. How do we then go work with all these people that in a weird way? We've been working with those humans that have kind of been the bystanders and building these relationships for 20 years. And now we're all at potentially not all of us, but we're a lot of us are in in positions that stayed in the industry, in the design builder, and and the trades and the prefabricating manufacturers to where we believe in each other because we've kind of seen it historically through the past and we can come collectively together and say, hey, let's go do some stuff together. So weirdly, with what you just said, I am really excited, man, to see kind of what those next 10 years look like. Yeah. Uh man, I'll be 55 by then. So hopefully that that by hopefully we can have a podcast reunion and we're talking about this shit in a whole different way.

Ryan 30:14

Yeah. 10 years from now, that it's it's not three or five percent of the market for offsite. Well, I think in some of the things you just shared, you know, thinking back towards, yes, the humans, the humans are who we're dealing with. And when I see plenty of leaner, you know, leaders that are out there who are saying, like, well, that technology didn't work, or or this didn't, you know, this didn't help us, or I tried it and this didn't work. And I'm always like thinking, like, well, it's not the tech technology. What was your change management process? How were you dealing with the humans? How did you understand how they felt during this piece? And I so you know, when I think about what you're talking about with like design assist and how you, you know, approaching the educational piece towards you know, working through these, these uh the human obstacles and barriers that are thrown up, that opportunity piece coming into view of like the next generation is stepping in as a leader. They're noticing a lot of these things that we've been, you know, situations aren't the same as when they first got into their careers. Not for you, not for me, not for them. That we don't have to keep using the same definition the way we understand it or we're first taught it, that we can begin to reframe our mindset around it like stuff's shifted. Um, things have changed, so therefore I can try this. Um and again, you're you're not gonna be perfect that first time. So your first project might lose uh lose some money. But you also describe that other change that's happening, not just with industrialized construction, right? Like adding technology, robotics, and adding manufacturer, whatever. The this convergence with AE firms, construction firms, developers, and the way we're delivering projects now are completely shifting, which also some of the obstacles are insurance.

Josh 32:15

Yeah.

Ryan 32:16

Become there, you know, you got you got these things that are out there that come up, are the insurance to the financing piece and how cash flows through a building. So again, I think about it all the time as like that's not that's a human problem. Again, we are writing the roles, we get to all get together. And like you said, you're working with those other leaders, you're starting to have these dialogues, like we're educating ourselves. And another thing that you said was so powerful was we like to hold on to that information. We feel like it's more powerful if we don't let go of it because we like if we let go of it, everyone else will have the answers. And I was one, you know, I was out doing training one time, and I I think as I shifted, I was getting some flack, and he's like, he's out there giving away all of our secrets. And I'm like, I didn't create this. Like this, I'm just educating on the delivery model. I'm just trying, like, to be honest, if the whole world spoke the same way, I don't think it would confuse architects from the beginning. Like, we got off on on very marketing, like marketing driven sort of approach, and it was like, no one understands what you're talking about. Yeah, architects don't think that way, engineers don't. Um, so anyway, it just you you hit me, you know, some of those things you said hit me pretty uh pretty hard and close to where like I've thought about it in my career of like, yes, I do think we're in a huge opportunity right now. Because um this is the next question for you, Josh. Like, I know that it's just very important for us to figure this out as an industry, but I want to hear your perspective of what makes it so important for the construction industry as well as you know, society as a whole, yeah, that we figure out this integration piece to get pre-fabrication more adopted. What makes it so important to you?

Josh 34:15

Oh man. Man, that that that answer has changed over the years too. Um immediately that comes to my mind is you know, again, we it kind of goes back to the capitalistic side. Um, you know, pre that used to be the number one driver, right? Like, and it is still up there. I'm just being honest. Like it, you know, what is the value proposition for an end user to get to market faster than a competitor or faster that they can hit revenue faster? Like that's that is almost the number one driver that, you know, historically prefab has um made people decide or or push them over the edge to make the move to say yes to prefab, right? And uh I remember being on a conference call for a prefabricated volumetric um dialysis center in Nova Scotia. And uh man, Canadians, you know, they're we're on this meeting, and and it was a huge architecture firm there in Canada that's also here stateside. And I'm going through the call, and I'm I'm my my this was probably maybe about seven years ago. And I I literally remember saying, okay, that I think this isn't gonna go forward. I'm gonna hit them with the, hey, you can go make money faster. This is healthcare. And that is like the number one easy way to get the prefab integrated into healthcare in the United States is talk about how much money you're gonna make because now your building is open faster. And I said it, and you know, Nova Scotia, the healthcare is free. They don't, they don't, they don't make money. Right. And and they said, Josh, we have a problem. Like we do not have enough dialysis centers. We have people driving two hours to get dialysis. We don't care about the money. And and it was this, again, this gut check back then to be like, oh man, that's so true. You know, like we can offer the world so much more and and to help people in such a way. And and I'm going somewhere with this because it's it's really evolved from that to where, you know, you fast forward to when I started looking at the value propositions very differently, uh, even in the state side with healthcare. And those value propositions of actually talking to, you know, doctors and physicians to say, think about how many more patients you could impact in your career, uh, how many more lives you could actually save because you you got open three months faster. Sure, the money, all that stuff is there too, here even in the States. But you get the real people that care about what they can do, um, just for people. And man, it it starts to change how sometimes they look at that. And and you're starting to see that. And I love this about even architecture now, right? Like it's ironic because you see some architecture firms who are going to extreme cookie-cutter AI. How can I rinse, cycle, repeat, get this shit out? I just need to make the most money from it and push it out. And you have other architecture firms who are bracing um, you know, experiential design in such a way that that they want classrooms to be impacted on the way kids see lighting and and realize the impact that the environments that we're in, you know, it's like I'm I'm honestly looking at this piece of desk behind me and thinking, gosh, the desk people, you know, we got the interior designers, it looks might be cool hanging from a wall, but I'm this isn't my normal office, but I bet those are empty realistically, or or they're they're they're fake storage because why? We those things were designed in an era that we had paper everything, right? And and everything was going through that. We don't even look at desks and storage like we should. And and what these like I if I saved this money for my team member, I probably could have had this, and we have them in our newer offices. We have, you know, desks that stand up so they're bodies, you know, because they sit down all day long, right? I if I didn't, you know, think if somebody would have been thinking about that back then. And prefab's the exact same way, right? Whether it's, you know, the the modular and prefab furniture companies of the world and what they could be doing to impact offices and spaces. But, you know, lastly, this is what I've been then harping on a lot lately with the subcontractors in in whole, because a lot of them are the ones, because in reality, material is material. We all know that. How subcontractors make their money is labor. And so they feel that by pulling labor off the job site, you are you're you're deplenishing the profits that they have. And I agree with them. They are. And that's that's a big struggle because people look at the bottom line and they say, well, I've been making this much and this much net for year after year after year after year. Why would I allow something new to come in and take that away from me? Because I can't make more money on the materials, right? Right. And we all have this human problem. Again, it goes back to there's not enough trades. We can't get enough people trained, can't get enough people that want to get into the trades, right? Like, um, you know, there's so much dynamic about not having people at job sites. And I go back to these trade partners as we're in a lot of some of these design build meetings with just the executives. And I and I'm like, this is the guy, you know, man, full circle, right? Who wanted to leave this fucking state so bad because I hated construction because I was on a job site and how miserable it was. I saw the guys having to do drugs to be awake because they're working 70 hours a week, the drugs to take away the pain in their body because they're doing so much with so little. And you look at their kids, their kids don't want anything to do with that lifestyle. Why? Because they've watched their parents' bodies, their minds, like all of that stuff go away. What if you could actually integrate prefab in such a way that that you allowed humans to like work 40 hours and maybe get paid the same amount of money and actually go home and not have to be, you know, half dead because their body is so broken because they had to pick so much up because we we did so much of it in industrialized construction that by the time it got, it's kind of like the bagger scenario at like uh, you know, retail stores like Walmart when they introduce the the cashier list checkouts. Oh, you're taking all their jobs away. And it's like, no, we're gonna move bodies into helping associates and team members and stocking shelves that you have product instead of getting to the register and being like, man, there was no milk in the back, right? Like we have this technology that can do that so that we can actually have the same amount of employees that impact your shopping experience better. It's the same with industrialized construction. One, it allows the people that are working in the factory, and I try to tell people this all the time, like when they're talking, you know, doing like value propositions for safety, you're not moving the same safety hazards that you have in the job sites to the factory. It's so different, right? Like when you're building a bathroom, you're on a six-foot ladder. We don't even have to have 12-foot ladders inside of the factory, right? That's right, that's that's not something. So your fall, and it's ironically, I don't know how many you know, prefab companies I've gone into and you see them doing, you know, their safety uh, you know, talks, you know, like their toolbox talks, you know, before they start their shifts and they're using traditional construction ones and they're talking about stuff that doesn't even exist inside the factory, right? Like you, like they're they're just because that's what's been given to them, because that's the program that was created for construction. Yeah. And you're talking about scaffolds in a factory that would never have a scaffold, right? Like it, we haven't even shifted to think of how do we how do we make them safer that don't even have the same safety problems at a job site. And then how do we make those guys at the job site realize this is to your benefit. It's gonna give you better life. You're gonna live longer. You can actually enjoy this career because you can go onto a job site and get so much work done within eight hours versus feeling like you have to come back and work Saturday in 12 hours because you're getting yelled at by the by the GC of keeping a schedule down, right? And it's like it's it's more than just even the end user value impact. It's it's the job site itself that that think about project managers. Like, you know how many GCs have, I mean, we've fucking seen it. You got these big jobs, and their general conditions have to be so big because why? You're managing a thousand people at a job site. What if you could peel back half of that overhead and allow those people to potentially go do other things, uh more, more projects, right? We could go change the world, right? Like that's the irony of not looking at industrialized construction in such a way that it really does have more human impact for our own industry, not even just the end user side of it. Because the end user side of it, we we pitch that that value proposition. I hear it all the time, but I don't really hear it so much on our side of the industry of what it can do for the, you know, just the average worker all the way to the office staff, right? Less stress.

Ryan 43:23

Well, and it's I mean, it's powerful to think about it in that way. And it's something that I I think about often too is yes, it's always about those end users, but as you said, like we're going back to we're going back to the human piece of if this is brought in, it's taking my lunch away. And you you said it too, is is like they could probably be doing something else. It's not removing, it's removing certain steps that we're all used to. And this is that moment where, you know, from our mindset again, we we know this, we've learned it. I'm it's valuable, it's gotten me here, and if I lose it, what do I have? Yeah. And our in our mind, and you know, within the trades, but even as leaders and construction companies, creating a culture of change is around like, hey, that situation is now different. It doesn't mean that wasn't valuable and isn't still valuable. It's just that we need to stop reading from the same play box because it's a different, it's a different world. The factory is a different world than the field, but the fact that our human minds will go to the easy button. That's right. Which, if you want to get real deep, is called system one versus system two. The we are made, our brains are made to function in an easy button mode. We are created to to build habits that remain us into a very fast pace. When something new comes along and we got to slow down, we're uncomfortable. That's where the fears drive in. That's where the loss, loss aversion starts happening of like, well, I will lose money, I will lose my job, I won't exist. And that's not really true because you you said this too. I call it the future labor force is not going to be the same size as it is today. And we cannot build enough infrastructure. So you you getting into the viewpoint of the healthcare system and thinking about doctors, that is something that as an arch, you know, from an architectural side, and I think about it's like, why am I designing this in the first place? It's not to win an it's not to win an award, it's not to check boxes with lead. I'm doing it because on the other side of that are students learning, patience healing, you know, whatever it is that's happening inside of that space. To the builders, it's there are these huge opportunities to go build other things that you can, you know, what if you could take the same hundred-person crew and go build twice as much? Yes, the size of your contracts might change, but like suddenly our net profitability might all start going up because we're getting off project sites faster. We're not, as you said, managing a thousand people. Yeah.

Josh 46:24

And you're seeing it with data centers even. Sorry, I mean, no, no, go ahead. No, you're seeing it with data centers, right? Like, I don't know how many phone calls I've gotten on the prefab side. You know, we're chasing jobs, and they're like, look, some of these large, well-known name general contractors have taken all of these data centers because there's so much profit in it right now. Well, guess what? They have zero staff to go pursue items like healthcare, right? Uh, the more complex jobs that might make less margins. Why? Because they just don't have the staff to be able to do both. Yeah. What if, like as you were describing that, I was literally thinking to myself, okay, like if they would embrace, and they are, they do have some prefab in data centers. That's the irony. Um, and and I I said this when I was at my my last company, Dirt. You know, it was I was advancing prefab and and I was on the stage, and and I was like, you know what? It's it's ironic because they have the ability to do medical head walls prefabricated with all finishes, everything within a four-week lead time. Nobody gives a shit. Nobody. No. You know why? Nobody because prefab head walls are released day in and day out, six to eight months in advance. And a design assist, so it doesn't matter if you can build them in two days. That it that there's no value proposition for somebody for a prefabricated head wall. And so, like, what value proposition is that? And I I literally stood on the stage, I said, until the day that the concrete guy has a four-week lead time, the structural steel guy has a four-week lead time, like to completion, right? The exterior skin guy has a four-week lead time to completion, and the roofing guy has a four-week lead time. Like, and when when we can get the whole industry aligned, then specifically that company and that head wall, man, if head walls were eight-month lead times, that would be a big problem, right? You would say, Oh my God, I only need the company that can get me a two-week or four-week lead time on head walls because my whole building is waiting for this. And that has to systematically change. And ironically, we have to look at concrete differently. We have to look at slabs. I mean, my son, you know, I live in an old historic 1902 house, man. I love it, which is ironic for a guy that's all about prefab, right? Um, and it's it's Pierum Beam. And my son's like, Dad, like, why the hell does our house have this crawl space? Like it's creepy compared to like, you know, our friends in the newer, you know, subdivisions that, and I'm like, construction changed. And I was like, honestly, I like this better. I think it's it's better for the house. It's better, but it's it's an old way of doing things. And someone found an easier and a faster way to do something. And I was like, unfortunately, they didn't innovate that enough to get there. But it's the same with slabs, right? We've we've got to increase prefab industrialized construction for all of the building components, um, not just the critical paths. That's the problem, too, is that too many of these construction companies I hear too often, well, like if you think bathroom pods, they're like, oh, bathrooms aren't a critical path. I'm only willing to do prefab for the structure or the exterior envelope because that's a critical path. And I tell them all the time, I was like, last time I checked, you need a CO. So your critical path is getting a CO. And the faster you can get that CO, anything in the way of that is stopping you. And I was like, last time I checked too, there's more punch lists uh inside a bathroom than any other location in the area. So your superintendent might disagree with you on site and say that the bathrooms are probably a huge critical path, but in the office, you're not seeing it that way. So we have to look at all that stuff so differently, man. Yeah.

Ryan 49:56

No, it's a great, it's a great point because again, it's it we tend to put conventional mindset and approach to building and just try to marry that with prefab or any kind of off-site solution. So going back into that critical path, it's like we I try to tell everybody is like we need to slow down the design process and speed up the build. Yeah, that's like like when we're rushing, like we rush the design, we break the packages, we break the packages up, forcing the engineer to do this, the architect to do that, no one's talking, nothing's coordinated. Some stuff's half designed, the rest of it's full design. Then we're like, why do we have so much problems in the field? And it's like, I don't know. Why don't you tell me? Um, so when it comes to this fabrication piece and thinking about prefab, I I'm in agreement. Like, we have to, this is where it's the not, you know, you got to rethink, but there's unlearning. It's going, it's the gentleman or the person reading in the factory, like from verbatim, the safety thing that's just like, wait, I'm literally not even, none of this makes any sense. No one's stopping it or her from reading it. And it's like, what are we doing? Um, again, the humans, we are we can find our agency in all of this and figure it out. But I'm gonna pause for a second. Can you hear that? Uh I can't know. Yeah, no, you're gonna be. They're they're mowing my somebody showed up with a lawnmower. So I guess your uh your noise canceling has it down. You're good. I'm hoping it's not gonna pick it up.

Josh 51:31

But anyway, I think where was I thought I was talking about the uh stop and the inside the factory, yeah.

Ryan 51:38

Yeah. So thinking about you know, the statement that you made on the stage, which goes back to that lead time piece, right? Like, I I know, I mean, like you at Dirt, I used to work for Dirt, and it was like everyone talked about the lead time, and I'm like, no one cares about the lead time because again, if a door takes 12 weeks and you only got a 16-week TI, right, like there's certain things that the way they're going to think about it. And to be honest, like our job is to get up into that integration piece anyway. So we just need to get it to hit the site when it needs to hit the site, but we need the rest of the schedule to pull forward with us in order to get that end date shifted. So I'm glad you shared it because I think those that are working around prefabrication, you know, think of it in that way. But for those who haven't worked with it, like it isn't like it isn't the same. So you should be doing what you're talking about, which is we got to get everybody to sort of speed up, right? Everybody in in their in their lead times to how we're thinking about what we're producing and how we're producing it. So something else that you you know just kind of got me thinking, then it goes back to that educational piece. That how we know it's a huge opportunity, but it's highly important that we're starting to figure this out because we can't get enough patient rooms. Right. Doctor doctors want to see patients. There can't, there's not enough. We have a rural health care prices in in the states that's hitting, and I'm pretty sure it's everywhere as you just said up in Canada, like two hours to go get dialysis. Like, that's a human problem. Yeah, that's not a build environment problem, it's a human problem to figure out how do we go build more environments in which people can can can be take be seen and be taken care of. Um but I when I'm hearing all these things, you know, it's like there's the obstacles, there's the barriers. There is a huge cost. Yeah. And that we just started getting into this, but there is a huge cost by not solving this problem, which is the patient who can't drive two hours to get dialysis because they can't drive, they don't have any family near them, they're located somewhere far away, or or a project team, you can't hire enough staff to come in and to build. Um, costs are not going down on construction because we're, you know, we figured out how to build traditionally. But I want to throw this back to you, Josh. Like, what else do you think this is costing not only the industry, but the the whole, you know, the whole planet, because we're we're looking through a lens of what we've known to be true versus uh taking a step back and saying, like, this is a location I've never seen before. Like, what do you think it's costing?

Josh 54:37

Oh man, that's good. That's good. You know, I think um immediately when you started talking about that, I started thinking sustainability, right? Um, and again, man, that's man, I that's probably opening up a huge can of worms for so many different people, right? On so many different levels. Right. Some people um push the extreme envelope uh of sustainability. Some people think it's you know a crock of shit and there's no such thing. And then you have people in the middle that are trying to find advancement and ways uh to make the earth better and to our environments better. And so I I'm thinking like realistically, even back to like my historic house. And I remember this room that um I was remodeling. And of course, there was there was drywall in it, right? A 1902 house didn't have any drywall in it. And we always talk about how many, you know, pounds of drywall on remodels and stuff like that end up, you know, into you know, all of our the whole environment as a whole. But if you go backwards and you look at like ship labs, so I started pulling all that drywall off, right? And sure enough, I found this gorgeous ship lab, you know? And I I literally, you know, as a builder, thought to myself, gosh, we've made drywall look sexy. I mean, we have. Like we've we've figured out how to paint it and tile it and just all these things. But in reality, the product itself, um, somebody at that era, and I I'll have now I'm really intrigued. I'm gonna have to go back and do some history on like actually when drywall uh was invented and how did it make its big shift and pull off into different uh sectors. But but that's even even the fact that we call uh you know like a division five and nine sub a drywall subcontractor, right? We don't call them framing, like some people do, but in general, like we don't call them framing and insulation and like those are just some of the products. But if you really want to get technical, that's the drywall sub. That's the electrical sub, that's the mechanical sub, not the wall sub, ironically. It almost should be that, uh, if you were to think about that way. But but we're not we're not advancing even the products that that really even prefabricated solutions and industrialized, and that's where I'm going like with the industrialized construction side. Think of the environments that we live in and the cancers and all of those things, truthfully, that in industrialized construction could make huge impacts on life and the future as a whole, right? And energy efficiencies and all of those things that, you know, people bitch and complain, like shit's not gonna get cheaper. We know that. It's just not like all the bullshit around politics and this and that, it's it's that is just cyclical of riding these small waves to come down just a hair, up a hair, up, you know, two up, down, one down. The the way we make big drastic changes is through changing different dynamics. Like if we want to get into energy efficiency in such a way that I'm not using, and again, this goes back to even my 1902 historic house. And it's it's hard for me sometimes because I don't want to change out. I have original single-pane windows that with with transom windows inside my house, and there's something historic and beautiful about that that I don't want to change it to an energy efficient. But gosh, if I did, I wouldn't be spending 4,000 kilowatts on my house every single month. I would probably be down to about 200. And so it's it's a catch-22. But in reality, I think we have to look at even the products that we have that we just use day in and day out. And how do we make some impact changes that industrialized construction, because that's always been the the the problem with even panelized walls? Everybody wants them finished. Well, uh drywall doesn't make it very far. You the minute you paint it and put it on a truck, man, that that thing is probably cracking. It's getting damaged along the way. Like, um, that's you know, just to me, honestly, like some of the things that we can we can do better. Um, because I think it will have so much more impact um, you know, for humans, for lifestyles, for um just the stuff that we have that's gonna last maybe a hundred more years. The fact that the ship laps behind there, like we can come up with some newer product that has better sustainability, that is cheaper, that can be used in industrialized construction, that maybe we can now ship residential walls without feeling like we're sacrificing by putting FRP on it, you know, and building mobile homes. Like that's everybody wants a modular home. Like you think about FEMA and the California fires and the Hawaii fires and the Puerto Rico, like all of those things. But yet the only solution that we have is job site trailers, you know, and you know, cheap volumetric modular homes because no one has found a way to make it cost effective with gooder products to get something that someone can live in, right? Like no one really advancing those things to where we we don't have to put people up in FEMA trailers for six months while a traditional house is being built to replace the one that was destroyed, right? Yeah.

Ryan 59:35

I mean, it's true that we this goes back to our habit. Like we just I've noticed before, it's like the idea is to take the same materials we've always used and we just put it into a different form and we call it a solution. And it's you know, the sustainability side. You you you touched on it. Like when we're talking about things that are sustainable, there, you know, a lot of people just throw it in a bucket of like climate or green initiatives. Well, those are those are important, but also like we don't want asbestos around us. We don't yeah uh we don't need to be drink you know sitting and and breathing in off-gassing or VOCs, or we don't need drywall all the time around us. And it was around 1915 drywall, and I think it took off in the mid-50s with the housing boom because we had to build more. Yeah, the the the fast you know drywall install was quicker. But you you know, you did you got me thinking a lot. Like this goes back to again, like this language, this language that we're used to, that we're all taught, and we've just we know like the divisions, and people are called this and they're called that. And you know, something I worked on when I was in prefab was uh working in special construction section, uh, you know, the divisions of Vision 13 was was in integrated assemblies to get those numbers accepted by CSI because I was like, look, you know, multi-trade approach to build out is these are integrated pieces. It is a you know, it's a different delivery model than just just a trade kind of coming in. But you you got me thinking like we just get so again, it goes back to I think the obstacles, and this is just how I'm gonna reframe this for myself, too, is like I think sometimes we make the obstacles things that we just know, and those things we just hold on to, and we're like because we've we're always knowing this, we're it's we've always known it, we've always known it to be true, so it cannot change. And we we get stubborn as humans and we get into the rut, which you know, read some stories about train track sizes versus horse uh wagon wheel sizes versus you know space shuttles. Like engineers use the same measurement. I think it was like four feet, eight and a half inches, four feet six or somewhere in there for that measurement. I'll have to do a fact check. But it's they just kept repeating it because it's like well, it's worked before, it's gotta keep working. And it's like, well, in the cases that you're talking about, it's like we we as an industry can pause this for a second and we can look at the delivery models, we can look at the methods, we can look at how we're we're learning it and digesting it and how we're implementing it into our processes, how we're building scheduling. Um, because in the end, like the importance of solving it is there's a material change that we got to start thinking about. We need material science to come into it. How do we use AI, you know, enough to like test some things because there's companies out there that are doing some great things with paint. Yeah, but you you know, when I think about what you just mentioned about your windows, you're in a house that's over a century old, right? It's 120 years plus, and there's components that you don't want to change because of the aesthetic of them. And that's just where I get so frustrated at by our industry, is like go walk around Europe and look at the buildings and look at what we're building today. Now, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna judge like, hey, you should have won an award for this or that, but like we're doing something wrong. Yeah. When when we're not working as an industry between material science to building manufacturing to prefabrication to how we work as architects or engineers to builders, to be the ones that are like, we don't have to repeat, we don't have to rinse and repeat specs. We don't have to rinse and repeat materials, but we can engage and work together to understand like this gentleman shouldn't have to keep these windows in because of the aesthetics. We should be able to recreate things, yes, and have them. Same aesthetic without being so exhort, you know, the cost being so custom. Yeah, that's so true. But I, you know, I'm just it just gets me thinking back towards like of how we started this journey of like prefabrication adoption, you know, is going to require the humans to engage in this process, yeah, alongside, you know, yourself and others that are out there doing it.

Josh 1:04:24

Dude, let me add one thing to that real fast, man. It it made me think of a memory of history. And um, you were just talking about like my house. And um, I I know so many people, and this is always a thing. Well, we we we want we want this to look sexy. We you know, prefabrication is not that, right? Like we we want this this building's gonna look like this, right? And and they're I'm grateful that there are some people doing that. And I and I remember hearing that a lot. Well, we don't want cookie cutter, okay? Like it has to be identical, right? I'm like, well, it doesn't have to be. And they're like, what? You know, and I was like, and so then I started like doing some historic, like, okay, like let me understand some construction history behind it. Like, what is what is prefabrication anyway? Like, that is a whole nother probably uh podcast if you've not done yet yet of who is defining the word prefab, modular, industrialized construction and what fits into those things. Um, but the flat iron building in downtown Manhattan, okay, the code, and you're talking about like even just the things, the code was changed in like the late 1800s, the early 1900s that allowed buildings to over 20 stories to be built out of structural steel and not just masonry. Right. Previously to that, they were stuck to that. And the flat iron building is it's fucking iconic. It's gorgeous, right? You talk about like the European buildings, right? We have so many across America that still fit that bill. But the cool thing about that building, if you go and study the history, is that was the fastest building built above 20 stories because off before the construction, because of course, no everybody was fighting it. They didn't think the building was gonna stand 10 years. Well, And that building is still standing to this day. It's curved. I mean, it's gorgeous. Like, I mean, is it an iconic building? But they pre-drilled the structural steel holes off site in the columns and the beams so that the bolts, so that they could lift it and put it in faster. And every floor was done every two weeks, and that was unheard of. And it was like, that's prefab. Like in the early 1900s, and we know about the Sears Catalog, most of us that are in the industry of the delivering homes, you know, during that time in trucks. But like I told people, like, you don't have to look at prefab and modular industrialized construction as something like we can't do epic things, and it has to be just this cheap thing. Like we can do stuff, like it might cost a little more, right? But what do you get on that back end? And so I just wanted to add that, at least for you know, for your your audio listeners, that uh like, man, don't also when you think prefab modular, that you can't have something sexy and amazing. Like that's that's a misnomer.

Ryan 1:06:58

Yeah. No, I'm glad you added it because I do have that conversation all the time of like the naming. Like everyone's like, well, don't call it off site, don't call it prefab. Don't call it modular. And I'm like, look, man, there there are, I love that you said it like with the steel. Prefabricate, most things that we deal with are prefabricated. Like we're not like we're putting them and connecting them, but the the floor has the cushion on it. Yeah already as a tile. Like that's technically a prefabricated tile, right? So it's how a brains relate it to something that we know. Again, I think they could just you mentioned trailers. People think of the word modular and they you know the modular industry. Like, if you think look at an MBI and they're all out there fighting, like, well, we don't want it to look like a trailer. It's like you're the one that's telling it to look like a trailer in your own head. That's right. Like, it's it's again, situations have changed, the way we can manufacture codes are shifting. I, you know, I interviewed uh Kristen Slavin here a couple months ago about mass timber, and she was part of the group that helped change really the code, especially in Oregon, of like being able to go taller with mass timber. We humans in the design and construction industry can drive those changes when we investigate it enough, when we open up our minds and look cure, you know, through the curiosity lens of like what can be possible, as you just said, with the flat iron building of like we're gonna pre-drill. I mean, my career started in pre-cast, and it started in pre-cast because I lived one you know street away from a precast plant, and I saw it from an early age of like, holy cow, these entire panels are just leaving with the facades on them. And like, how is that done? Um and now seeing how that's even advanced, right? It's not the prefat the pre-casting piece that I grew up with is different than the pre-cast that that we're seeing today. Um, with class fiber reinforced to you know how they can fabricate it. So if we can if we can just, you know, for our listeners, like we pause for a minute about who is defining prefabrication. Yeah, if someone else other than yourself has told you something, go explore it. Go go look and see what's possible because additive manufacturing is now changing all of that as well, right? Um, with companies that are, you know, with 3D printing, they're able to do a backup system with the facade piece. Like there's all kinds of different approaches to this um in the way we're addressing it. But anyway, I'm glad you added it because now that I'm thinking about it moving forward, like you're out educating, you're shifting into this new position, you know, you're in from a president role now here with uh um integrity built. You you've been educating your whole career, you've been educating yourself, you've been thinking even in our conversation about things that you're reflecting on. Josh, what does success look like to you for you know the industry for yourself? You mentioned the word legacy. What what what do you think success looks like for that industry if we if we adopt it? More preference.

Josh 1:10:27

I uh I think success looks like redeeming the guinea pig animal. You know, you know, like I don't know how many times in my career I've heard, I don't want to be the guinea pig. I don't want to be the guinea pig. When when this new thing has been tested, tried, and true, then come back to me, right? Like I don't want to be the guinea pig. And um I I think if if we can get to the point to where it's like you, I you know the joke, like or the meme when you see like pigs fly, and then there's you know, like wings and shit like that. It's like I I swear our industry of construction is like, I don't want to be the guinea pig. And I think success for me uh and leaving a legacy behind is that it's advanced in such a way that uh, you know, I I tell my kids this and um a lot of good friends and and including my my my team members, uh, when you're up against a difficult decision in life, whatever that may be, and and for the people listening that you know are builders and they're having to decide whether they want to integrate prefab, whether it's an owner, whether he's getting pitched by you know a general contractor who said they will, but they've never seen it before, and he might have to pay a premium, but he's at risk, or a designer that might have some more hours because they've never done it before. Uh the same application applies that when you have two decisions that you have to make in life, man, I've always said this. It's always the harder one that is the right one. Always. Uh at the end of the day, in your mind, if if it's this, and I'll use our example at the end of the day, a traditional or a prefabricated solution. The traditional is always the easier one. Why? Because it's it's proven, it has they're gonna stand behind it because of XYZ of these many years of history, things like that. Like, like I would love for a day that prefab and industrialized construction becomes this, and we have something else that we can talk about that becomes the harder decision. Oh my God, like I have no idea what that is. Like to be like in a in a weird way, like that's weird to think that right now we're currently limited to two options, traditional and prefab. And prefab is the harder decision, which usually, again, I I almost say nine times out of ten, it's always the right decision. Because if it's harder, it means it's going to push us to be successful. It's going to push us out of our minds and out of our current state. Uh, and I go back to why I made the decision of leaving just a division five and nine and division, you know, five prefab to moving into you know full pods and volumetric. That was a hard decision for me. But I knew it was the right decision. I knew I was gonna have to work harder. I knew I was gonna have to learn again. But I'm so grateful for it because I am who I am today because of that, and I can have success. But it's like, what is that next thing? I don't know. But man, success in my mind is when I can look and see two options, and prefab becomes the easy option. And whatever this next thing is on this side becomes the harder one, man. That's uh I I hope I'm around the industry long enough and old enough that I can uh be excited to say, fuck it, I might be 70, but let's let's go get it. I'll go after the harder one, man. I hope I'm still around.

Ryan 1:13:43

Yeah. Well, I hope you are as well. I think that's uh I mean, it's a powerful reflection on on it because again, it's understanding your own humanity of like choice. I've got two choices sitting here, and you know, we don't like to have you know a choice made for us, and we don't like to have too many too many options to be able to make a choice because we waver on it. But you describe something of like, hey, I got to make a choice to to dive into something that I knew was going to be more dip difficult. I I paused, I gave myself time to reflect on it, to understand like I'm going to learn be learning something new on this journey. And we we've talked about it a lot in our conversation, but like yeah, that new thing is is going to be uncomfortable. But what Josh just said was maybe we're not sure what the next thing is because we haven't made it past this. And and there are enabling things, like there are things there are steps that we have to take to learn from it in order to be able to see to the next step and to kind of understand what that is. I think about it in pharmaceuticals to science, like just because it was the wrong answer that they were, you know, they didn't get the they didn't find the answer. Doesn't mean it's wrong, right? They didn't find it, they didn't find it through that additive uh solution that they were providing, but now they know that that didn't work. So that gets to go on the side of like, okay, we tested it. But I think in our industry, because of that risk piece, the low margins, like we tend to say, like, we just have to stay this course because that's the only way we can stay in business. And it's like I, you know, again, when will you when will the time come when you trust yourself and your team enough and the abilities and the talent that you created to try this next thing so that it starts to show other doors that you might be able to go through? So I'm glad you kind of stated it that way because I just think that we we we feel it as humans, we we might even beat ourselves up, but we will tend to just stay there because again, like you said, it just is easier. Um, and you know, renaming, I love the way you stated it. Just kind of who's who's defining these things for you? If it's not you, then okay, you didn't make the choice, someone else has made it for you. Yeah, um, so so Josh, I've I've appreciated all of the things that you've shared and everything that we've discussed. Um, before we wrap up, um, if someone's been listening and they are curious, like what's some next steps you think they should take? What's some other things that you think they should dive into?

Josh 1:16:41

Well, that's good. Um, man, hey, hit, hit first, first and foremost, be a part of um the even the stuff that we disagree with. Um look, I from a guy that went to World of Modular way back in the day, and I said, man, most of these companies are are doing you know drop side trailers and modular homes. Man, there was guys in there that I said, no, these some of these guys are commercial construction prefab and modular people. And and and not that there's anything wrong with me, because MBI, man, they they were doing their thing before commercial construction decided they really want to advance into this market sector, right? And so um get engaged um with different entities that are doing different things to learn, right? Like it, it takes people like us that are pushing boundaries and again, doing the harder things easier to potentially just go start something back up. Um, you you know, I'm a huge historian esque, and I I remember like Martin Luther and uh, you know, the Reformation and some of that era, you know, of Christianity and Catholicism and all that. But it was like, man, he he he wanted to just talk about things internally, you know, not necessarily divide, right? And I think too often that's what we're trying to do in our industry. We're we're sometimes we're just trying to divide and create the next thing instead of just sticking with it and and us coming together. And uh so man, get involved with you know, your your local chapters of whatever builder associations that you have, um, you know, the the DBIA uh institution, man, get involved with those things and be a part of conversations. Don't just sit back. I'm tired of like being in in panels where people, um, man, God, if you're if you're listening, even if you're like a me, don't sit on fucking panels anymore and give the same answers all over again. Like let's let's talk about some deep shit together. Let's actually sit together with a real round table that isn't just trying to do a sales pitch, and all of us actually come together and fucking build something amazing that everybody looks at us and says, How did they do that? Well, we fucking came together and we decided to change the status quo in such a way that we decided to talk it through, right? Yeah, um, so I think getting involved with as many of the associations, but involvement to me means making impact in it, not just sitting on the sidelines, not thus like we don't need we don't need any more cheerleaders, right? We don't need any more instigators from the sidelines. We have plenty of those people uh out there wanting to see us succeed so they can jump on the bandwagon or talk shit about us so that we can't succeed or or make us afraid to try to go after it. We need people to like come alongside and and wrap their arms around us and and and go do it together. That's really what we need. And so I would just encourage people to get involved as best as they can locally and then of course educate themselves, man. History is cyclical. It comes, then it goes. And yes, it has a new nuance to it, but the next drywall is out there. We just we just don't know what it is yet, you know? And so it's something that's gonna cover a wall and it'll have a name. I don't know what that is eventually down the road, but it's out there, it's cyclical. Something will be there, so be a part of that change.

Ryan 1:19:44

Yeah, yeah. No, I think I think that's an important place to kind of land, is that it is their involvement. I say it a lot of times, like there's eight to ten million of us in this industry. Like, you don't have to take that many, you're not taking 10 million steps by yourself. Just go take that first one, get involved as you're saying, Josh, have those conversations. Something else I think you said is powerful is like we got to get out of this judgmental society where we're throwing each other under the bus in this industry. It's like we can learn from every single one of them. You know, we we all like to blame the superintendents for this or that. But like they are human, they're going through things, everyone needs a paycheck, everyone has their life challenges and issues, like we all face it. But by going and seeing that human on the other side of it, right, as you're describing, and sitting not on a panel, but like at a round table, or just get a group of people together around, you know, in your area and just start having conversations. You don't have to be right, they don't have to be wrong, you don't have to pick sides, you can just learn. You can just be curious. So, Josh, thank you so much for being on Activating Curiosity. I really enjoyed the conversation. Yeah, I hope in 10 years we can do a uh a rehash and see uh how this played out and how it landed. But I appreciate the time and thanks for being on. Yeah, yeah, appreciate you, man. Thank you. Thank you. So that's the episode with Josh Menziger of Integrity Built. And this is a it's a newer role for him, a transition. But I I love the conversation with him. I his background coming from the technology side, thinking that's the direction he wanted to go, and then ending up getting into some of the trades and working through those and seeing how how construction was actually evolving or not evolving from his perspective and landing into this world of prefabrication, off-site construction. And not just looking at it from a view of the one involved in it. He's his whole career has been looking at it from a standpoint of those accepting it, those willing to integrate it into their designs as an architect or an engineer, but also thinking about it from the end user's perspective and just being able to have a conversation with someone to kind of help all of you listeners who maybe haven't worked with prefabrication or have, to pause for a minute and just think about some of the things that that were discussed. You know, where did we learn the definition of off-site construction or prefabrication or industrialized construction? Where are we getting confused and who's defining that for us? And how can we begin to look at those things that we're, you know, whether we're in the trades, we're the site superintendent, or we're the architect and the engineer on the project, or we're the developer, like what our role is going to be as we look at construction in the future and as we look at bringing off-site solutions, whether it's single trade or multi-trade solutions into projects, that we're assessing the methods of construction. We're assessing the delivery models, we're understanding that situations have changed from our traditional means and methods and the way we've thought about it to our processes and how we work within firms to the questions we're asking. Like all of these things are opportunities. As humans, we want to look at the obstacles and we want to think that we can't move them. But by asking questions, getting involved, as Josh mentioned, just getting out and just having conversations where we're not judging one another's viewpoints. We're just testing what we've known and have always known against what might be possible to take that next step, see more doors of opportunities sort of in front of us to continue to advance the industry and solve some of those problems that we have right now, which is a shrinking labor force that can't address the needs of the built environment around us, that we can't get enough healthcare built, we can't get enough infrastructure built in in all areas and aspects of North America to all across all across the planet, as we've had other discussions. So I hope that you enjoyed the conversation. We're passionate about it. Um, you know, I'm wishing Josh the best of luck in this in his new role. And I know he'll do great things. And I know he's gonna continue to educate himself. I know he's gonna continue to educate others as it relates to off-site um construction, off-site fabrication. So I hope that you're able to continue to evaluate those things that you just feel like aren't right, and you just want to make sure that you're you're thinking about it differently and you're starting to look at new opportunities to advance the industry and leaving your own legacy um behind as you begin to think about your next steps in your career. So until next time, I hope you're continuing to activate your curiosity as well as activating curiosity within others. The Activating Curiosity podcast is brought to you by Connected Consulting Group and Connective Coaching or the Curiosity Building Experience. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe to the network with the comments. Interested in coming test more than activity curiosity, for more details. Until next time, keep leading with curiosity.