Jan. 13, 2026

Leading Change in Construction: Why Culture Matters, Not Just Technology

Leading Change in Construction: Why Culture Matters, Not Just Technology
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Construction LeadershipChange ManagementLeadership CoachingConstruction IndustrySelf-ImprovementFuture Of WorkTransformational LeadershipOrganizational CultureWorkforce Development

Summary 

This episode of Activating Curiosity is for construction and AEC industry leaders navigating ongoing industry change and preparing for what’s next.

Host Ryan Ware sits down with Brian Turmail, Vice President of Image for the Associated General Contractors of America (AGC), to explore what leading change in the construction industry will require as we move toward 2026 and beyond.

Together, they unpack critical leadership challenges shaping the industry, including workforce shortages, technology adoption, economic uncertainty, and the growing need for collaboration across the AEC ecosystem. The conversation highlights why many change initiatives fail—and why empathy, communication, and human-centered leadership are essential to effective change management in construction.

Ryan and Brian also explore the role of culture, care, and curiosity in building trust, reducing change fatigue, and helping teams adapt in an evolving industry.

If you’re focused on construction leadership development, navigating industry challenges, or leading change with clarity and confidence, this episode offers a grounded and forward-looking perspective on the future of construction leadership.

Chapters 

05:00 - Challenges in the Construction Industry

15:00 - The Role of Technology and Innovation 

25:00 - Cultural Shifts and Workforce Development

35:00 - Importance of Human Connection and Empathy

45:00 - Future Outlook and Call to Action

Guest 

Brian’s role is to develop and oversee all public, member and chapter communications, marketing, fundraising and sales activities for the 27,000 member construction trade association. He also oversees the association’s market insights and grassroots activation efforts. And he helps support the association’s workforce development efforts, including advocating for career and technical education funding and immigration reform, executing workforce recruiting campaigns in partnership with AGC chapters, creating workforce development resources for members and organizing the annual National Construction Industry HR & Workforce Development Conference, among other activities.

He is a member of the board of directors of AGC Charities Inc, the association’s charitable arm, where he oversees Operation Opening Doors projects that get volunteer contractors to renovate facilities for worthwhile groups.

Websites 

https://www.agc.org/industry-priorities/project-innovation-delivery

https://buildculture.org/

Send us your thoughts, ideas, questions

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Helping construction leaders simplify change, strengthen trust, and move forward with clarity.

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WEBVTT

00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:03.439
I actually think by and large, people care about each other in this industry, right?

00:00:03.439 --> 00:00:08.400
Like they're they're I mean, yeah, they're there are schmoes in any sector of the economy.

00:00:08.400 --> 00:00:14.640
But by and large, that because it's such a collaborative, such a teamwork environment, you do actually care, even for selfish reasons.

00:00:14.640 --> 00:00:18.079
You care about the next person because their success is crucial to your success.

00:00:18.079 --> 00:00:21.679
The challenge is how do we show that care?

00:00:21.679 --> 00:00:27.679
How do we how do we open up and in a tough work environment where we do tough things?

00:00:27.679 --> 00:00:29.600
How do we say things like, Are you okay?

00:00:29.600 --> 00:00:30.399
Do you need help?

00:00:30.399 --> 00:00:30.719
Right.

00:00:30.719 --> 00:00:32.719
It doesn't make you weak.

00:00:32.719 --> 00:01:04.719
It doesn't make you less skilled as a craft worker or construction professional, um, but it just makes you more human yet.

00:01:11.120 --> 00:01:16.319
I am Ryan Ware, and it is the first episode of 2026.

00:01:16.319 --> 00:01:27.120
So I'm hopeful that all of you enjoyed your new year and got some time off to hit reset and replenish that energy level and ready to take on on the new year.

00:01:27.120 --> 00:01:34.400
Um, and that's one of the reasons I want to have the conversation that I'm going to have today, um, because I think it's so important for our industry.

00:01:34.400 --> 00:01:45.359
And I've had a chance to meet this gentleman uh a few times and know a lot of the work that he is doing as well as his association is so important for the construction industry.

00:01:45.359 --> 00:01:49.200
So today I have with me Brian Termail.

00:01:49.200 --> 00:01:55.280
He is the vice president, industry and association image for the AGC.

00:01:55.280 --> 00:01:57.280
So, Brian, how are you doing today?

00:01:57.599 --> 00:01:58.159
Oh, I'm great.

00:01:58.159 --> 00:02:02.480
Thanks for a first of all, I'm like shocked and appalled it's already 2026.

00:02:02.480 --> 00:02:04.079
Where did 2025 go?

00:02:04.079 --> 00:02:05.760
But uh no, thanks for having me.

00:02:05.760 --> 00:02:06.719
I'm I'm I'm glad to be here.

00:02:06.719 --> 00:02:08.240
I'm looking forward to our conversation.

00:02:08.479 --> 00:02:15.840
Yeah, and we are teleporting into that region right now because we know we're recording this a little bit ahead for the listeners, but it's still shocking.

00:02:15.840 --> 00:02:21.520
It's still shocking to say, I'm grateful for you um spending some time with me.

00:02:21.520 --> 00:02:28.719
Um, I've enjoyed all of the conversations that we've gotten to have uh recently and the chance to get to know you a little more in the work.

00:02:28.719 --> 00:02:38.560
I'm obviously aware of the AGC and the involvement that they've had with the industry for so long now to be such an important player in helping the development.

00:02:38.560 --> 00:02:48.159
So before we get into the uh the full episode, why don't you tell a little bit about yourself, kind of your past, how you got in um to working with the AGC?

00:02:48.960 --> 00:02:55.919
Uh probably best to start because, in some sense, that I I've gone full circle professionally uh right out of college.

00:02:55.919 --> 00:03:03.919
I actually ended up in Washington, D.C., where we're we're headquartered here at the Associated General Contractors, uh, teaching public school.

00:03:03.919 --> 00:03:05.599
I taught second grade for two years.

00:03:05.599 --> 00:03:09.039
I was, I was gonna, Brian, I was gonna save the world before I sold out.

00:03:09.039 --> 00:03:15.680
I was in this, I was in this program called Teach for America, uh, and I got assigned to teach uh in inner city, D.C.

00:03:15.680 --> 00:03:23.120
Uh and and really learned that I was not a great seventh grade teacher, but it was a heck of a two-year experience.

00:03:23.120 --> 00:03:28.639
Uh, and then then from there uh spent some time at a public relations firm.

00:03:28.639 --> 00:03:35.759
And then after 9-11, September 11th, uh uh ended up uh working in the federal government.

00:03:35.759 --> 00:03:39.840
It's it's funny, like the whole time I was in DC, I always felt like I lived in D.C.

00:03:39.840 --> 00:03:45.039
and there was a separate Washington, and then inevitably I kind of got sucked into Washington.

00:03:45.039 --> 00:03:58.879
Uh and and actually I, my first federal job after 9-11, I worked for the then brand new Transportation Security Administration, uh, which professionally was a little bit like uh a year at TSA was like dog year, right?

00:03:58.879 --> 00:04:18.160
It was like seven years of actual professional experience, just because at the time it was kind of the new story, and we did lots of things to make our lives miserable, like hiring an axe murderer to be a TSA screener or making a mother drink bone breast milk or all kinds of just nightmare stories that for a PR guy makes life very interesting.

00:04:18.160 --> 00:04:26.959
Uh, and then spent a number of years af after TSA working in the Secretary's office at the Department of Transportation as kind of the spokesperson for the department.

00:04:26.959 --> 00:04:36.720
And then I have been with uh the Associated General Contractors ever since the very end of 2008, which is actually 17 years ago, right?

00:04:36.720 --> 00:04:44.000
And and the role has kind of evolved, but and and the title uh uh is a relatively new one.

00:04:44.000 --> 00:04:47.279
We're going through a bit of a reorganization at AGC.

00:04:47.279 --> 00:05:04.480
But uh I would say the best way to describe my job at AGC is that it's it's my job to make sure that the story of our association and the story of our industry, including career opportunities in our industry, is one that's well known.

00:05:04.480 --> 00:05:15.439
It's not just well known to our members, but well known to the media, well known to uh elected and appointed officials who kind of hold some of the fate of the construction industry in their hands.

00:05:15.439 --> 00:05:18.720
And then really to any other audiences that are important.

00:05:18.720 --> 00:05:21.920
So one of those obviously audiences, future workers, right?

00:05:21.920 --> 00:05:38.639
We spend a lot of time talking about the the many wonderful career opportunities and pathways that exist to work in construction as we deal with what our members tell us is their number one challenge, which are construction workforce shortages.

00:05:38.639 --> 00:05:47.839
But in addition to dealing with a lot on workforce, just to finish answering your question, uh I do spend a lot of time with our marketing team.

00:05:47.839 --> 00:05:55.199
So where we're making sure that people know how they can engage with our association and are signing up for things like in-person conferences or webinars.

00:05:55.199 --> 00:06:04.399
Uh, spend a lot of time with our multimedia team on all of the kind of social media and video storytelling that we do and audio storytelling.

00:06:04.399 --> 00:06:15.199
I'm I'm the spokesperson for the association, so I spent a lot of time talking about AGC and the industry to the media and many other audiences that will listen and many more that probably aren't listening to me.

00:06:15.199 --> 00:06:24.560
Uh, and then also spend time, uh, you know, we have like many other trade associations, we have a PAC and we have an advocacy fund and we have a charitable organization.

00:06:24.560 --> 00:06:30.000
So I spent a lot of time supporting those groups and and kind of overseeing the fundraising opportunities.

00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:36.639
So if anyone is interested in supporting our construction advocacy fund or our charitable group, uh I'd be happy to have that conversation.

00:06:36.639 --> 00:06:38.879
But for right now, I'll avoid making the money pitch.

00:06:38.879 --> 00:06:39.439
I promise.

00:06:40.480 --> 00:06:43.199
Well, it's you know, it's such an important thing.

00:06:43.199 --> 00:06:47.920
The image, those out there who who are, you know, they're all familiar.

00:06:47.920 --> 00:06:48.720
Let's just be honest.

00:06:48.720 --> 00:06:53.040
They're they're watching construction come up, but they that their image is the orange cones.

00:06:53.040 --> 00:06:58.639
It's the construction fences, it's thinking projects may never get done.

00:06:58.639 --> 00:07:13.920
Um, their image is one thing, and that that perception becomes reality, like you said, for that future works force of like why would I want to go into that if if maybe the world has some some image of, you know, from a negative standpoint.

00:07:13.920 --> 00:07:15.920
So I think that's such an important role.

00:07:15.920 --> 00:07:25.920
And I know you've been able to kind of play that with multiple different agencies and and getting, you know, getting the information out, especially today.

00:07:25.920 --> 00:07:31.360
Like we're hit with so much information and it go into that that algorithm.

00:07:31.360 --> 00:07:35.600
So there's a lot of ways I think the conversation that we'll have today can go.

00:07:35.600 --> 00:07:37.759
Um, and that image being kind of one of them.

00:07:37.759 --> 00:07:43.600
You mentioned the future workforce and a lot of those challenges, obviously, your members are facing.

00:07:43.600 --> 00:07:48.879
So um you you got into this role in 2008.

00:07:48.879 --> 00:08:00.079
From your perspective, you know, being that image, you know, driving the image out to the rest of the the country and those that get impacted by what we do on a daily basis.

00:08:00.079 --> 00:08:03.040
What do you believe are the the biggest problems?

00:08:03.040 --> 00:08:14.240
And maybe we put it in a viewpoint of 2026, but also maybe long term, the biggest problem that the AGC is really targeting, the key initiatives that they're targeting for the year.

00:08:14.240 --> 00:08:15.040
Sure.

00:08:15.439 --> 00:08:22.639
You know, as I mentioned, obviously the thing that keeps our members up most at night are our workforce shortages.

00:08:22.639 --> 00:08:28.160
And and to some extent, that's a policy issue, and to a large extent it's also an image issue.

00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:29.040
You're absolutely right.

00:08:29.040 --> 00:08:32.480
Everyone is aware of construction.

00:08:32.480 --> 00:08:41.039
It's not like, you know, if I were to say, you know, like, hey, I'm a I'm a quant at a brokerage house, no one knows what the heck that means and how your day looks.

00:08:41.039 --> 00:08:47.519
But everyone has a general notion of construction because everything that we do as industry is incredibly visible.

00:08:47.519 --> 00:08:50.240
It happens out literally in the open most times.

00:08:50.240 --> 00:09:00.240
So everyone's seeing someone in their PPE working on a road, working on a building, and has a a general perception of what that career is.

00:09:00.240 --> 00:09:09.519
But at the same time, like never has there been an industry where everyone has one perception and the reality in many cases is so very different, right?

00:09:09.519 --> 00:09:15.759
Like they see someone standing around, they see someone operating a piece of equipment, they see someone doing manual labor, all of which happens, right?

00:09:15.759 --> 00:09:17.360
Like that's part of construction.

00:09:17.360 --> 00:09:23.759
We literally build everything that that everyone uses uh in in our economy.

00:09:23.759 --> 00:09:30.559
Uh, yet what they don't see is all of that pre-construction work, the planning work, the coordination.

00:09:30.559 --> 00:09:34.960
They don't see the great lengths people go to ensure the safety of the workers.

00:09:34.960 --> 00:09:41.360
They don't see necessarily, now look, I'm paid to go and spend an hour or two filming at a construction site.

00:09:41.360 --> 00:09:45.360
So I see a lot more things the average person, they don't see the technology that's being used.

00:09:45.360 --> 00:09:45.679
Right.

00:09:45.679 --> 00:09:58.080
They don't see the evolution, how frankly, if you were to visit a job site in 2008, the the three job sites that were in business in 2008, because remember there was, you know, essentially a construction depression.

00:09:58.080 --> 00:10:05.440
Uh if you were to visit a job site in 2008 versus the a job site today, just the amount of changes that have taken place.

00:10:05.440 --> 00:10:11.440
I I think most people in construction actually would be astounded by how much this industry has changed.

00:10:11.440 --> 00:10:33.759
So so the perception challenge comes into the workforce issue in the sense that there are a lot of mamas and dads and aunts and uncles out there that don't want their babies to grow up to work in construction because they think it's dirty work or they think it's dangerous work or they think it's not dignified work, for lack of a better word.

00:10:33.759 --> 00:10:40.159
And and you know, the and and they don't appreciate that it's actually well compensated work either.

00:10:40.159 --> 00:10:52.399
They think it's like a beginner job, or yeah, you know, and and so we we we spend a lot of time as an association and the industry spends a lot of time trying to better shape those perceptions.

00:10:52.399 --> 00:10:56.559
The good news is this it's not like the accounting industry.

00:10:56.559 --> 00:11:02.480
No offense to accountants out there, but like if I were to spend a day filming a bunch of accountants at work, that would be boring.

00:11:02.480 --> 00:11:05.600
It would it would be like why it'd be like watching me work.

00:11:05.600 --> 00:11:10.720
Like I'm in front of a computer typing away and on the phone, or you know, that's not very exciting.

00:11:10.720 --> 00:11:16.799
The work that our industry does, our members do, is awesome.

00:11:16.799 --> 00:11:18.000
It's impressive.

00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:20.960
They are building things that you could never conceive of.

00:11:20.960 --> 00:11:22.960
They're making things happen every day.

00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:26.879
The physical environment where they work because of their labors is changing.

00:11:26.879 --> 00:11:31.919
So we have this like incredibly visually storytelling-friendly industry.

00:11:31.919 --> 00:11:33.600
And everyone is interested.

00:11:33.600 --> 00:11:43.039
There isn't a person that walks by a job site that doesn't stop and look a whole at a hole in like this, you know, the fencing to see what the heck is, what are they doing in there?

00:11:43.039 --> 00:11:46.480
Like we have this innate curiosity about things getting built.

00:11:46.480 --> 00:11:48.320
And that's that's an incredible advantage.

00:11:48.320 --> 00:12:21.440
We just need to make sure that we are showing, if we think of like the storytelling as looking through that peephole in the construction wall, that we are showing the full story and the career opportunities that exist, the technology that's being used, how this industry's evolved, how there are so many pathways into the industry that it don't require people to accumulate a bunch of college debt, that that that the the the pay levels, the the the the sense of camaraderie on a job site, the sense that you're on a team, the sense of accomplishment.

00:12:21.440 --> 00:12:23.600
Uh we have to show that, right?

00:12:23.600 --> 00:12:29.360
You know, another story I like to tell and is that I have I'm a PR guy.

00:12:29.360 --> 00:12:31.519
Like I'm a shameless PR guy at heart.

00:12:31.679 --> 00:12:32.159
That's all right.

00:12:32.399 --> 00:12:46.159
I have never, nor would I ever attempt to have taken my children into my office, printed out a couple press releases that I've written, or even like coverage that I've covered, I've seen received, and made them read it.

00:12:46.159 --> 00:12:48.399
They would look at me like, you are a crazy man.

00:12:48.399 --> 00:12:51.120
You, this is the most boring thing I could possibly look at.

00:12:51.120 --> 00:13:10.720
But every person in our industry, whether you're a laborer, whether you're the CEO of a company, whether you're an estimator, whatever the role, has taken someone they care about in their truck over to a project they worked on and said, That's my building, that's my airport, that's my bridge.

00:13:10.720 --> 00:13:16.159
And and and we have to kind of bottle that sense of pride that comes with working in this industry and selling.

00:13:16.159 --> 00:13:19.120
So, yes, to answer your question, workforce, huge issue.

00:13:19.120 --> 00:13:34.080
But I also think that we're in the midst of other challenges, is we're in the midst of an ongoing technologically driven change in in the process of construction and the actual practice of construction.

00:13:34.080 --> 00:13:43.759
And and I think a lot of our, actually, I know a lot of our members, particularly small and medium-sized ones, see that as more of a threat than an opportunity.

00:13:43.759 --> 00:13:50.080
That, oh my gosh, the big guys in the world are going to be able to outspend me in technology and I'm gonna get left behind.

00:13:50.080 --> 00:13:59.840
And one of the things that we spend a lot of time as an association trying to uh show and have our members teach each other is it's actually an incredible leveler.

00:13:59.840 --> 00:14:07.519
All of a sudden, the Davids of the world can take on Goliath because they don't have to spend all their time doing back office functions.

00:14:07.519 --> 00:14:24.000
They can be just as productive, they can be just as efficient because technology all of a sudden frees them up to be able to ramp up and scale and do things, uh, you know, whether it's process, whether it's pull phone, RFP, whatever might be far more efficiently than even just a few years ago.

00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:27.759
And and then more, I think more long term, but it's still happening.

00:14:27.759 --> 00:14:34.080
We're seeing this transformation in the tools and equipment and process of how things are built.

00:14:34.080 --> 00:14:38.879
And that also, again, maybe is a challenge, but it's also tremendous opportunity.

00:14:38.879 --> 00:14:48.320
You know, for years we have heard over and over again about the fact that the construction industry has been a laggard in improving productivity, right?

00:14:48.320 --> 00:14:51.120
That we're just not as productive as others.

00:14:51.120 --> 00:15:00.559
And and I I I've I think we've long felt like it's a bit wrong that there is an enormous amount of productivity and productivity improvements in every project site.

00:15:00.559 --> 00:15:08.799
It's just construction's like think of an NFL team that every week plays with a different collection of players, right?

00:15:08.799 --> 00:15:12.720
Every project in construction, you get a different collection of players.

00:15:12.720 --> 00:15:20.000
And and it's almost like every productivity improvement we make, we then we have to go back and we have to make up again with the next project because it's a new team of people.

00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:31.279
So but I I I do think, and I think we think that technology might actually make those productivity gains from project to project stick and and kind of snowball.

00:15:31.279 --> 00:15:36.240
So so yeah, so to technology, AI, challenge, threat.

00:15:36.240 --> 00:15:43.519
And then, you know, I think the third thing that we're spending a lot of time on right this year, and hopefully this will change, is just economic uncertainty, right?

00:15:43.519 --> 00:15:43.840
Right.

00:15:43.840 --> 00:15:55.840
You know, we're in the uh by the time you'll be listening to this conversation, uh, we'll have released our annual outlook, you know, our survey of members that that that predicts where the market's going.

00:15:55.840 --> 00:16:03.519
Uh and it's the most pessimistic outlook we've seen from our members since the pandemic.

00:16:03.519 --> 00:16:07.519
There are, they are, I hate, I don't want to depress people in the new year, right?

00:16:07.519 --> 00:16:12.720
You know, like you're on your diet, you're you're trying to work off, you know, all the make and marry from December.

00:16:12.720 --> 00:16:23.919
Uh you know, I will say beyond data centers and power construction, our members do not expect the market for any other segment of construction to grow.

00:16:23.919 --> 00:16:27.679
And and many of them they expect to shrink compared to last year.

00:16:27.679 --> 00:16:41.360
Now, whether or not they're right in their predictions, I think that's a good snapshot into the mindset of the construction community, which is wow, we're we're chasing data centers, and I don't know if I'm ever going to build another office again.

00:16:41.360 --> 00:16:41.919
Right?

00:16:41.919 --> 00:16:42.399
Right.

00:16:42.399 --> 00:16:44.639
Hopefully they're I love our members.

00:16:44.639 --> 00:16:46.879
I generally think that they're incredibly brilliant.

00:16:46.879 --> 00:16:54.159
I hope they're wrong this time and that that 2026 ends up being like kind of a breakout year economically, but there's a lot of worry.

00:16:54.159 --> 00:17:30.000
And so we we we as an association, we as people who care about the industry need to think about okay, if we've got that mindset, what are the things that we could do that'll help our members understand how to be more efficient, how to be more effective, how to chase the work that is out there, uh, how to, how to, how to, or maybe how to use a quieter time to invest in some training and development so that when the economy turns around, when demand picks back up, they're ready to rock and roll, as opposed to 2008, 2009, 2010, when everyone laid everyone off, the economy turned around, and all of a sudden they're like, oh my gosh, we got no one to build this stuff.

00:17:30.319 --> 00:17:30.799
Right.

00:17:30.799 --> 00:17:31.279
Yeah.

00:17:31.279 --> 00:17:31.920
People left.

00:17:32.160 --> 00:17:33.519
So that was a long answer, forgive me.

00:17:33.519 --> 00:17:51.279
But uh, I think, I mean, we we could we could probably spend all day talking about the things that we worry about, but I would say workforce, technology, economic conditions are probably three good kind of representative examples of the kind of things we spend our time worrying about and and trying to figure out how do we help our members be successful.

00:17:51.599 --> 00:17:52.240
Yeah.

00:17:52.240 --> 00:17:57.039
Well, and I think those are three things that are interconnected in a lot of ways.

00:17:57.039 --> 00:18:00.480
And I'll I'll try to do the weave here to stitch that together.

00:18:00.480 --> 00:18:23.359
But I think as you were talking through it, you know, one, I'm gonna I want to talk a little bit about that image piece because, like you said, everybody, and that sense of pride of what we were building as an industry from the you know, from the labor force standpoint, I think you and I talked before, like my entire life, we've been talking about the shortage that we had and was coming.

00:18:23.359 --> 00:18:35.359
And, you know, my generation, we were all there was glamorous jobs that we could go out and get trained through university to do.

00:18:35.359 --> 00:18:43.279
And like you said, there was this maybe layer put over top of what could be accomplished by being in the trades.

00:18:43.279 --> 00:18:46.480
And we made some mistakes back then.

00:18:46.480 --> 00:19:29.200
And now that's where we've got to look at this, like you're like you're saying, of this convergence with industrialized construction of like delivery models to methodologies of construction to to all of the tech, what you know, be it uh software internally, to what's possible with additive manufacturing and robotic side and direct digital manufacturing, things like that, that aren't, you know, like you said, the mindset, because we're human, the first thing we think is like, well, that's a threat, so therefore I must protect, and I must protect what I believe I own and can control.

00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:29.759
Yeah.

00:19:29.759 --> 00:19:41.920
So this industry has, you know, gotten a bad rap for being in the we are slow to adopt, we are slow to change, so therefore, like you said, our productivity level goes down.

00:19:41.920 --> 00:19:45.440
Well, now I think we've got a bunch of limiting beliefs.

00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:49.279
Where it's, you know, I posted something today.

00:19:49.279 --> 00:19:54.240
It was all about the title, like how how we call something something in the industry.

00:19:54.240 --> 00:19:57.680
And it is like, you know, is it modular, is it prefab?

00:19:57.680 --> 00:19:58.480
Is it off site?

00:19:58.480 --> 00:19:59.759
You know, it's all about industrial.

00:19:59.759 --> 00:20:01.359
Construction.

00:20:01.359 --> 00:20:08.799
I was like, when are humans going to realize in their own abilities to learn how to build with these methods?

00:20:08.799 --> 00:20:09.200
Right.

00:20:09.200 --> 00:20:10.960
It's just the method of construction.

00:20:10.960 --> 00:20:30.160
And as you're saying, like this is a huge opportunity for, and I know I focus a lot personally with small businesses to medium, and they're not the big general contractors who have bigger net profitability or more revenue to invest in RD and things like that.

00:20:30.160 --> 00:20:36.559
Like there is some gaps in there, what technology costs to be able to be able to implement it.

00:20:36.559 --> 00:20:45.279
But one thing I did notice, and you talked about this, it is a mindset for a lot of us in the industry.

00:20:45.279 --> 00:20:51.119
And it's a change, you know, it's a change about how we think about what is a threat versus that opportunity.

00:20:51.119 --> 00:20:51.519
Yeah.

00:20:51.519 --> 00:21:08.400
And how we, you know, how we navigate change to be able to implement that when there are so many diverse ideas of what clarity means, or what does control mean, or all of those things.

00:21:08.400 --> 00:21:16.880
And you said about going to the gym, like how much commitment will I have to stick with that routine or to get this implemented?

00:21:16.880 --> 00:21:42.400
And I the thing that I commend you, you know, as a group on as well, is this idea behind the innovation, I think you you call it the project innovation and delivery uh of technology committee that are focusing on helping small to medium-sized companies look at change management as it relates to implementing these solutions.

00:21:42.400 --> 00:21:51.519
And I think about that image of the the next workforce, right, that wants to come in, like they want to see that.

00:21:51.519 --> 00:22:01.839
They want to see, you know, yes, there has to be skilled trade labor on the job, but they're they've they're Gen I, right?

00:22:01.839 --> 00:22:05.440
They've had technology their whole life.

00:22:05.440 --> 00:22:14.799
So to go into an office or onto a field where there isn't technology along with some skilled labor, they're not gonna, they're not gonna want to enter.

00:22:14.799 --> 00:22:22.079
So that's part of that image of we have a huge opportunity to figure that out for ourselves.

00:22:22.079 --> 00:22:24.640
Like, what does this change mean to me individually?

00:22:24.640 --> 00:22:47.440
What does it mean to my team, my company, but the investment into that, you know, future workforce to gain productivity as you're describing, by can we generate more revenue with the same amount of headcount by inserting technology because we're able to do far more projects and deliver on far more.

00:22:47.440 --> 00:23:06.240
And something else that you said that I think is, you know, the outlook for 2026, and not to go dark on it, I think you can look at the ABI report, the architectural billing index, and that I mean, that's been rough for three years, I would say, since 2022.

00:23:06.240 --> 00:23:12.559
Um, just sort of showing flat at the inquiries and the billings and everything.

00:23:12.559 --> 00:23:16.000
But this is where it's like our opportunity.

00:23:16.000 --> 00:23:42.240
This is me personally, I feel that our opportunity, you know, with all of those in the industry to start to, as you said, invest into trainings and development and change management to start to solve an enormous problems that our country has in infrastructure and housing and other areas, because we we we work through this together to say, we're going to implement some of these things.

00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:56.720
We're going to think about new strategies, we're going to look at the methods in a different way that we can supplement the lay for the future labor force, which will be smaller than today, to build, to build things.

00:23:56.720 --> 00:24:17.119
So I know I'm saying a lot there, but you gave me a lot of a lot of things that I was thinking about of the opportunity of the problem we're aiming to solve, can have just as much pride in being part of that legacy of changing how we're looking at it.

00:24:17.119 --> 00:24:24.319
The same way we do look at pride when we design a building, build a bridge, build a building that we want to showcase to everybody.

00:24:24.319 --> 00:24:30.640
Because, you know, it does take a lot of humans to put a building together or to build anything.

00:24:30.640 --> 00:24:35.039
And there aren't a lot of industries that that can say that.

00:24:35.039 --> 00:24:38.319
That it takes, it takes all of us to do this.

00:24:38.319 --> 00:24:43.119
Like accountants have a business, but like, as you said, like it's not the same.

00:24:43.440 --> 00:24:48.960
And even if it did, they're all working individually at a cube or office, crunching numbers.

00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:54.880
They're not I mean, the the level of interdependency required in construction.

00:24:54.880 --> 00:24:55.839
Maybe there are others.

00:24:55.839 --> 00:25:08.559
I mean, maybe if like you're you know, nuclear physicists, you have the same challenge or if you're the military, but everything one individual does drives and impacts what another individual does in this industry, right?

00:25:08.559 --> 00:25:15.519
And and and so I mean, literally, this is the ultimate team sport when that's out there.

00:25:15.519 --> 00:25:24.000
And and I do think that's an it's a you know both an opportunity and mostly an opportunity, a little bit of a challenge, but an opportunity.

00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:37.119
You know, how do we and and which means that one of the kind of recipes for success is how do we keep those individuals focused on productivity as opposed to process?

00:25:37.119 --> 00:25:59.039
And and we we were talking the other day, there is, I mean, it w it's not a panacea, it's not gonna serve all of our solve all of our problems, but I do think a lot of the technology, a lot of these sort of particularly artificial intelligence tools, which don't require a massive investment because other firms are technology companies are spending billions a day to perfect this technology.

00:25:59.039 --> 00:26:14.720
But if we can use some of these tools to free up a lot of the process work that comes with modern construction, the paperwork, the the you know, uh all the things that are needed before you can actually even start moving dirt.

00:26:14.720 --> 00:26:21.119
Still do them, still make sure they're right, but maybe it takes hours instead of days or weeks to get it done.

00:26:21.119 --> 00:26:34.319
It's almost like we can get back to that kind of that, whether it actually existed or not, but this perception of this heyday of, you know, a time where contractors would shake hands and go out and build magnificent things, right?

00:26:34.319 --> 00:26:34.799
Right.

00:26:34.799 --> 00:26:39.440
We'll shake those hands, we'll have all the contracting and all the sort of documents you need.

00:26:39.440 --> 00:26:54.000
We'll just spend less time doing those, and we'll spend more time building you know, the next Chesapeake Bay Bridge, or building the next Hoover Dam, or building the next um, you know, Dulles Airport.

00:26:54.000 --> 00:26:58.160
Well, maybe Dulles is a bad one to pick on because everyone seems to be hating on Dulles Airport these days.

00:26:58.160 --> 00:27:06.000
But you know, the but the next magnificent structure that that where people are inspired by the things that we build, right?

00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:22.000
And and I do think that that again, like, yeah, change is is is challenging and you have to manage it right, but it but but the changes that are coming have the opportunity to kind of make it easier, even with fewer people.

00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:29.599
We know demographics that we're gonna have a smaller working-age population relative to the total population in the United States.

00:27:29.599 --> 00:27:36.720
Uh, and and certainly we're also currently in the midst of shrinking the pool of the lawfully authorized workforce in the United States.

00:27:36.720 --> 00:27:42.160
We're since January of 2025 and today, whatever your politics are, it's math.

00:27:42.160 --> 00:27:47.759
We have fewer people legally allowed to work in this country than we did at the beginning of the year, right?

00:27:47.759 --> 00:27:48.640
Between U.S.

00:27:48.640 --> 00:27:55.200
citizens and foreign-born individuals who were legitimately authorized to work in January and aren't anymore.

00:27:55.200 --> 00:27:57.119
So we have a smaller pool of labor.

00:27:57.119 --> 00:27:59.200
Technology allows us to get a lot of things done.

00:27:59.200 --> 00:28:02.880
And then, shameless plug for an association like AGC.

00:28:02.880 --> 00:28:20.240
One of the reasons people join an association like AGC is that instead of spending your time reinventing every deal, you are all of a sudden part of a network of people who have dealt with the same challenges you have dealt with every day and figured it out.

00:28:20.240 --> 00:28:27.200
And you have a forum where you can come together and have conversations about, okay, I'm struggling with this challenge.

00:28:27.200 --> 00:28:29.519
I can't figure out how to make this work.

00:28:29.519 --> 00:28:38.640
And all of a sudden, you're sometimes literally and sometimes virtually in a room with 100 people from around the country.

00:28:38.640 --> 00:28:39.839
You're saying, Yeah, you know what?

00:28:39.839 --> 00:28:40.480
It's funny.

00:28:40.480 --> 00:28:42.960
I had that same problem on this project two years ago.

00:28:42.960 --> 00:28:44.480
Here's how we solved it.

00:28:44.480 --> 00:28:46.240
And we have that same opportunity.

00:28:46.240 --> 00:28:52.960
You know, one of the fears on technology is I'm a small firm, I don't have the resources to go test 10 pieces of technology.

00:28:52.960 --> 00:28:53.839
No, you don't.

00:28:53.839 --> 00:29:02.160
But you have an association where we can bring you together and say, here's 10 firms, each one testing a piece of different a different piece of the sort of technology.

00:29:02.160 --> 00:29:04.000
Let's hear from them how it went.

00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:05.279
And you inform yourself.

00:29:05.279 --> 00:29:11.200
Like we it we just like we can be collaborative on the job site among people who we pay to be on the same team.

00:29:11.200 --> 00:29:14.480
This industry is really good actually at being collaborative, right?

00:29:14.480 --> 00:29:14.799
Right.

00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:24.400
You know, I was talking to a contract the other day who says, you know, I I will I will compete with someone tooth and nail every day of the week, and then we'll go have drinks and we'll swap stories and help each other out.

00:29:24.400 --> 00:29:24.880
Right?

00:29:24.880 --> 00:29:33.039
Maybe other industries are like that, but our I mean, I hear that enough from enough members that like I'm sold that that actually happens.

00:29:33.119 --> 00:29:36.880
So I do I do believe that it does happen.

00:29:36.880 --> 00:29:41.039
I mean, architects to contractors, that stuff happens as well, right?

00:29:41.039 --> 00:29:41.599
Yeah.

00:29:41.599 --> 00:29:52.960
I mean, again, the whole industry is full of humans, and humans want connection, they want growth path, they want, you know, they want insights from others.

00:29:52.960 --> 00:30:05.200
So we're we're looking for mentoring, we're looking for coaching and those types of things to help raise everybody up because no general contractor can survive if subcontractors are struggling, right?

00:30:05.200 --> 00:30:06.319
That's absolutely right.

00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:08.720
You're only as good as your slowest sub, right?

00:30:08.720 --> 00:30:10.799
Or whatever you risk of picking on them.

00:30:10.880 --> 00:30:11.519
But yeah.

00:30:11.519 --> 00:30:18.880
And it's, you know, they don't always have the funds to do, like you said, some of those things.

00:30:18.880 --> 00:30:34.559
But being able to, you know, identify the problem that they believe they have, having somebody to help them go through that uh identification area and then ideation and work through your NPR.

00:30:34.559 --> 00:30:40.799
If you want a team to change, there's internal PR that has to happen to get that buy-in.

00:30:40.799 --> 00:30:50.400
And I think a lot of things that, you know, I was talking with somebody else, but there's a huge amount of change fatigue in the industry.

00:30:50.400 --> 00:30:58.559
There is a, you know, almost what I call a time poorness to the industry, meaning we hear a lot.

00:30:58.559 --> 00:31:04.480
I don't have time to learn anything new, especially, you know, pick on the architects because that's my background.

00:31:04.480 --> 00:31:05.039
Yeah.

00:31:05.039 --> 00:31:10.960
Like there, there are so many manufacturers, there's so many solutions, there's so many things.

00:31:10.960 --> 00:31:13.519
On the one hand, they're like, I like choice.

00:31:13.519 --> 00:31:16.000
And on the other hand, they're like, why do I have so many?

00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:21.680
And it's just like you're saying with the contractor, they don't have time to go through that, let alone the resources.

00:31:21.680 --> 00:31:26.400
They'll say, Well, we'll just wait till the next project's over to do it or to look at it.

00:31:26.400 --> 00:31:35.039
And I'm always like, Well, that you that's not how you you never want the next project to be the last one that gives you plenty of time to solve all of your problems.

00:31:35.039 --> 00:31:35.519
Yeah.

00:31:35.519 --> 00:31:38.799
Um, that's not that's not good business.

00:31:38.799 --> 00:31:56.240
So I think everything that you're saying is such an opportunity for, and I know you've got 27,000 members, but providing providing that insight, providing some of those tolls, providing, you know, that community.

00:31:56.240 --> 00:31:58.880
And that's where the human piece again comes into.

00:31:58.880 --> 00:32:00.480
We all want community.

00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:03.680
We can all have different views of things.

00:32:03.680 --> 00:32:13.440
We can, you know, we can have our opinions of it, but we know that each day that we go work, we're part of creating data.

00:32:13.440 --> 00:32:26.240
We're part of creating something that in the future someone's going to look at and say, productivity level or this or this business, you know, isn't isn't as impactful as as we thought it was going to be.

00:32:26.240 --> 00:32:50.960
So what we have at our disposal is our own agency to be involved in those changes, look at the innovation from a different perspective than we have in the past, and see, you know, whether you're you're on the site, you're in the office, or whatever part of the business, like all of those things that you can put into place.

00:32:50.960 --> 00:32:59.920
It might be an ERP system that that just to see the whip in the right way and to see the numbers as a small contractor is enormous to keep cash flow.

00:32:59.920 --> 00:33:26.160
Or it could be, you know, something to do with that process, like you're saying, like being able to funnel through a lot of the data or whatever part of the process that speeds up information to allow you to be doing what is a you know higher impact on the business, on the revenue, on the business, on the net profitability, because you're focused in those areas.

00:33:26.160 --> 00:33:34.079
So I think there is huge, again, I'm gonna I keep repeating it because it's it's my belief.

00:33:34.079 --> 00:33:58.640
There's a lot of opportunity for this current generation that and you know, workforce that is in the industry, and I know it's happening with a lot, a lot of the larger ones, but to start you know, lifting up the small to medium-sized construction firms, helping them through a lot of these changes and acceptance and adoption of innovation.

00:33:58.640 --> 00:34:06.880
But the other side I would say too is that we've got to be careful of a lot of these innovations and things, we all want data.

00:34:06.880 --> 00:34:09.840
Like we, well, how did this work in the past?

00:34:09.840 --> 00:34:12.159
And how was it successful?

00:34:12.159 --> 00:34:14.159
And how many times have you done it?

00:34:14.159 --> 00:34:23.440
And as you alluded to, Brian, it takes a lot of humans to do one project, and then when you go do the next one, it's a whole nother team.

00:34:23.440 --> 00:34:24.000
Yes.

00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:36.480
So we are almost self-inflicted wounds sometime looking for data that is data that you have no idea who those humans were.

00:34:36.480 --> 00:34:39.920
You don't know in enough information about how the project was ran.

00:34:39.920 --> 00:34:46.880
So if we looked at some of this stuff from a viewpoint of like the data is really good, but let me create my own data.

00:34:46.880 --> 00:35:00.559
Let me show my skill sets and my abilities as well as my team, as well as what I believe we can lead as a project team through this to go create our own data set uh that someone else can look at.

00:35:00.800 --> 00:35:06.400
And and uh it ties also into the sort of the big challenge of workforce shortages, right?

00:35:06.400 --> 00:35:19.920
Like you're not gonna retain people if they are spending 80% of their time doing kind of repetitive menial paperwork or some kind of process that could easily be automated.

00:35:19.920 --> 00:35:21.039
And they know it's automated.

00:35:21.039 --> 00:35:28.639
You know, like they're probably getting home at the end of the night and calling their friend and saying, you wouldn't believe this stupid stuff I have to do at work, right?

00:35:28.639 --> 00:35:41.519
You know, oh my God, I just spent eight hours that I could out there, you know, making stuff happen, filling out X or Y form, you know, and and and you don't retain people that way.

00:35:41.519 --> 00:35:45.199
You retain people, people don't go into construction because they want to fill out paper.

00:35:45.199 --> 00:35:48.639
They go into construction because they want to, they want to build things, right?

00:35:48.639 --> 00:35:52.000
They they they they want to see things get get accomplished.

00:35:52.000 --> 00:36:06.559
And the technology, whether you're small, whether you're medium, whether you're a large firm, the technology allows you to have your people spend more time doing what they're passionate about as opposed to what they are not passionate about.

00:36:06.559 --> 00:36:11.360
And and that will inevitably lower your turnover rate, right?

00:36:11.360 --> 00:36:20.800
And it'll keep and it will and it will help you also identify probably some rock stars that you would have never known were rock stars, because all they do is filling out pro, you know, you know, doing process.

00:36:20.800 --> 00:36:25.039
Like no one became like a process rock star unless they figured out a way to make it faster.

00:36:25.039 --> 00:36:30.320
Uh, but you know, so I I I again it's not a panacea.

00:36:30.320 --> 00:36:39.280
There are for every and and I think the other problem is just to kind of pop around for a second verbally, is that you you mentioned change fatigue.

00:36:39.280 --> 00:36:50.400
There are so many firms that have gone out there and thought they had the solution and invested in it and trained in it and used it.

00:36:50.400 --> 00:36:53.360
And then they woke up one day and said, holy cow, that wasn't the solution.

00:36:53.360 --> 00:36:56.320
That's just another problem, or we're just as stuck in process.

00:36:56.320 --> 00:36:57.199
So we get it.

00:36:57.199 --> 00:37:07.280
Like we understand that like people feel burnt, but the solution isn't to like the proverbially put your head in the sand and just kind of hope that like you can keep using the same software for 30 years.

00:37:07.280 --> 00:37:12.880
The solution is okay, let's get together with our colleagues who are thrilled to share information, right?

00:37:12.880 --> 00:37:18.400
Because that's the nature of this industry, and because everyone in it is really kind of passionate about it.

00:37:18.400 --> 00:37:29.280
Um you know, one of the advantages of the fact that so few people are kind of recruited in the industry is that people who are coming to this industry do it because they are excited about it.

00:37:29.280 --> 00:37:33.760
They didn't like see like a go army ad and thought, oh, I could do that.

00:37:33.760 --> 00:37:34.719
You don't have a job.

00:37:34.719 --> 00:37:37.039
Most people came into construction because they love it.

00:37:37.039 --> 00:37:40.639
They love the idea of it, they love what they could accomplish.

00:37:40.639 --> 00:37:43.519
And so they're passionate and they want to share their solutions.

00:37:43.519 --> 00:37:46.159
We can, as a community, learn from each other.

00:37:46.159 --> 00:37:47.840
And and that's not bad.

00:37:47.840 --> 00:37:50.719
I mean, like, no, we can't have conversations about what you pay everyone.

00:37:50.719 --> 00:37:52.079
That's an antitrust violation.

00:37:52.079 --> 00:37:55.840
But there's nothing in the antitrust laws that says you can't learn from each other.

00:37:55.840 --> 00:37:57.760
You can't share ideas and solutions.

00:37:57.760 --> 00:38:04.880
And ultimately, to your point, yeah, you know, you could be a GC on a project today and then a sub on another project tomorrow, right?

00:38:04.880 --> 00:38:10.960
It's in your interest to have people who are sometimes your competitors be just as efficient as you.

00:38:10.960 --> 00:38:13.679
Uh, A, because maybe they'll free up more people for you to hire.

00:38:13.679 --> 00:38:21.679
B, because you might be a JV with them, you might be on a project with them where you're sub, but they're your sub, and you want them to be able to rock and roll at your speed.

00:38:21.679 --> 00:38:26.159
So go ahead.

00:38:26.159 --> 00:38:28.960
I was just gonna say it's an exciting.

00:38:28.960 --> 00:38:33.039
I mean, I I do think it's it's there's always there's never really a dull moment in construction.

00:38:33.039 --> 00:39:01.280
Like it's always exciting, but but it is it's a changing time, and and I guess we see one of our jobs is helping firms avoid that change fatigue and and instead find the solution that that's not gonna be a waste of their time, but actually will make a difference, and hopefully that they can measure, but at a minimum, you you know, at a gut level, you're gonna say, wow, the people in this trailer are actually doing things instead of hunched over a computer all day long.

00:39:01.519 --> 00:39:02.079
Right.

00:39:02.079 --> 00:39:09.119
Well, and I, you know, the the change fatigue is not just a construction industry you know, issue, right?

00:39:09.119 --> 00:39:21.679
It's a it one, it's a human issue around the technology, but 70%, I mean, the the stat is 70% of change initiatives fail to meet their objectives throughout every industry.

00:39:21.679 --> 00:39:23.119
It's like the restaurant industry.

00:39:23.119 --> 00:39:23.920
So anyway, yeah.

00:39:23.920 --> 00:39:24.880
So yeah.

00:39:24.880 --> 00:39:27.840
So it's it's you have people implement things.

00:39:27.840 --> 00:39:43.199
Well, it always, you know, when you're going through a change management, that first stage, like slowing down enough to to drill in to find that core root problem, yes, opposed to just taking on the next shiny thing.

00:39:43.199 --> 00:39:48.000
And like you said, you know, the silver bullet or magic bullet or panacea, right?

00:39:48.000 --> 00:39:49.519
Like that's what we all want.

00:39:49.519 --> 00:39:55.840
And the reality is it's like, well, you're playing just as much of a part in this as the tech.

00:39:55.840 --> 00:39:59.760
And as leaders go and want to implement.

00:39:59.760 --> 00:40:10.559
A lot of times, you know, they go into change management and they they say, here's the vision, and they throw it out like everybody grabbed it, you know, magically and is running behind them, taking it on.

00:40:10.559 --> 00:40:13.519
Well, technology is the same way.

00:40:13.519 --> 00:40:19.599
Like, yeah, like we we boomerang back all the time, and half the team's using it, the other half's not.

00:40:19.599 --> 00:40:22.880
Like they're all like, I don't know what we're even doing or implementing this for.

00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:24.239
That's not the problem I have.

00:40:24.239 --> 00:40:32.400
So slowing down enough, like you said, to be able to have a community where you're not being sold something.

00:40:32.400 --> 00:40:38.159
You're actually looking at it like, hey, here's here are our problems, right?

00:40:38.159 --> 00:40:38.559
Yeah.

00:40:38.559 --> 00:40:41.119
The issues that we believe we can solve.

00:40:41.119 --> 00:40:52.719
And there might be a solution that solves multiple ones, but all of them probably not, or it might start to introduce um opportunities in other areas or process shift.

00:40:52.719 --> 00:41:09.199
But I wanted to talk about the change management piece because empathy-wise, we we as leaders in the businesses to if you are somebody who is driving the change or passionate about the change, there are others who aren't.

00:41:09.199 --> 00:41:11.119
So you have to be empathetic.

00:41:11.119 --> 00:41:16.239
You have to understand what that person is going through, how do they feel?

00:41:16.239 --> 00:41:19.679
And you don't know, like, they're why are they resisting?

00:41:19.679 --> 00:41:21.440
Well, yeah, you got to discover that.

00:41:21.440 --> 00:41:26.800
You got to figure it out because the technology probably didn't fail in most of those cases.

00:41:26.800 --> 00:41:31.119
It probably would have done what it was supposed to have, was supposed to do.

00:41:31.119 --> 00:41:34.639
It's the humans not all on the same page.

00:41:34.639 --> 00:41:38.719
It's not the system, the technology, it's not all aligned.

00:41:38.719 --> 00:41:40.639
Not everyone's bought in.

00:41:40.639 --> 00:41:44.559
So those are the reasons, you know, the most common that they they struggle.

00:41:45.119 --> 00:41:53.280
You know, in this industry, we love to pick on the proverbial crusty superintendent who's the object, who's like the obstruction to change, right?

00:41:53.280 --> 00:41:54.719
Oh, we always done it this way.

00:41:54.719 --> 00:42:02.159
And I was talking to um uh one of our members who does HR for a firm, and they they've recently essentially tripled in size.

00:42:02.159 --> 00:42:05.119
And and we've talked about how do you deal with the crusty superintendent?

00:42:05.119 --> 00:42:13.119
He said, Well, you know, you you just have to talk to them and understand what the concern is, right?

00:42:13.119 --> 00:42:24.000
She said, sometimes it's as simple as we want them to use this technology tool, and they're out in you know, the middle of nowhere, and they don't have the internet bandwidth to actually use it.

00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:37.519
It's a time suck for them because they're on essentially like the 2025 equivalent of like AOL dial-up trying to like get a modem signal, and it's it's maybe they need the Starlink for their trailer or whatever it might be, right?

00:42:37.519 --> 00:42:41.840
Or they, you know, just understanding what their concerns are.

00:42:41.840 --> 00:42:46.000
We talk about technology, but ultimately it's people who make technology work, right?

00:42:46.000 --> 00:43:02.719
It's not technology that makes technology work, it's people understanding their needs, understanding their concerns, understanding their their downsides are you know what's gonna challenge them, or maybe it's that they're a kick butt superintendent.

00:43:02.719 --> 00:43:08.719
I'll try and keep it family friendly, they're kick butt superintendent, but maybe they're not the best reader, right?

00:43:08.719 --> 00:43:15.920
So maybe we need to give them some other tool for understanding how to use this technology than a 50-page manual, all right?

00:43:15.920 --> 00:43:33.840
Like we need to, we need to so we do have to meet people because again, I I I mean, I just keep saying it, and I think everyone gets it, like that you could have the best technology out there, but if the people don't use it or want to use it or understand how to use it or know how to use it or are able to use it, yeah.

00:43:33.840 --> 00:43:40.320
Doesn't matter how much you've spent on the technology, it doesn't matter how great the coders were who coded it, it's how you're able to use it.

00:43:40.320 --> 00:43:42.880
So, so this is still very much a people thing.

00:43:42.880 --> 00:43:51.920
Um but but even that crusty, there isn't a crusty superintendent out there who wants to spend more time on the job doing medial stuff.

00:43:51.920 --> 00:43:52.559
Not one.

00:43:52.559 --> 00:43:55.840
There isn't a crusty or uncrusty, you know.

00:43:55.840 --> 00:44:05.119
So, but just figuring out how we get them to that uh greater level of productivity and and being flexible with them, I think goes a long way.

00:44:05.119 --> 00:44:12.159
And maybe one of the reasons why so many of these change projects, the 70%, which is a shocking number, fail.

00:44:12.159 --> 00:44:17.599
Yeah, it's maybe it's not that we bought the wrong tool or we bought the wrong software.

00:44:17.599 --> 00:44:26.480
It's we we we we didn't we we didn't figure out how our people could use it the right way.

00:44:26.480 --> 00:44:35.199
Or or the other thing is we didn't properly identify there is a lot of value in what is actually the problem, right?

00:44:35.199 --> 00:44:39.760
Some a lot of things that we think are problems are symptoms of problems.

00:44:39.760 --> 00:44:40.320
Yep.

00:44:40.320 --> 00:44:42.239
And how do we actually drill down?

00:44:42.239 --> 00:44:44.480
Just don't take long, but how do we drill down?

00:44:44.480 --> 00:44:47.519
Ask a few questions and get to the problem.

00:44:47.519 --> 00:44:54.079
And when we know the problem, then the solution is that much more likely to be successful.

00:44:54.079 --> 00:44:57.519
But it does take some, you got to be like an in-house investigator, right?

00:44:57.519 --> 00:44:58.960
Be the irk cool paro.

00:44:58.960 --> 00:45:02.480
Ask the questions to get to the core of the matter.

00:45:02.480 --> 00:45:03.599
So you know, sort of, yeah.

00:45:04.079 --> 00:45:05.280
No, it's forensics, right?

00:45:05.280 --> 00:45:10.800
And you know, if anybody wants to read a good book, there's a it's called Upstream by Dan Heath.

00:45:10.800 --> 00:45:11.199
Okay.

00:45:11.199 --> 00:45:22.559
But before the book starts, he tells the story of two guys standing next to a stream um having lunch, and the the children are floating down the stream, drowning, and they jump in to save them.

00:45:22.559 --> 00:45:26.239
And the one guy gets out of the water, and the other guy goes, Where are you going?

00:45:26.239 --> 00:45:29.760
He goes, I'm going upstream to knock the guy out and he's throwing the kids in the water.

00:45:29.760 --> 00:45:30.239
Yeah.

00:45:30.239 --> 00:45:34.239
Um, so the problem wasn't that the kids were drowning, they had to get upstream, right?

00:45:34.239 --> 00:45:41.119
So that's the point of the book and the story is that forensic, the time spent on the forensic side.

00:45:41.119 --> 00:45:43.360
And that's discovery.

00:45:43.360 --> 00:45:49.840
That's the information gathering, that is the conversations, like you said, with the with the superintendent.

00:45:49.840 --> 00:45:57.519
And and I'll say this there isn't one job that's that's ever going to go well without having a top-notch superintendent, right?

00:45:57.519 --> 00:46:00.800
Like they are carrying so much.

00:46:00.800 --> 00:46:03.760
So the HR person is absolutely right.

00:46:03.760 --> 00:46:05.760
And this goes for anybody.

00:46:05.760 --> 00:46:07.280
Go to the person.

00:46:07.280 --> 00:46:18.880
Change is personal, it is human, and we sometimes hold on, we overvalue what we have versus the future, our current state.

00:46:18.880 --> 00:46:22.639
You know, we look at it like it's painful, but it's current state.

00:46:22.639 --> 00:46:25.760
So I don't really want to go through the pain of the change.

00:46:25.760 --> 00:46:27.599
And I'll say this you're a PR guy.

00:46:27.599 --> 00:46:36.239
Like, we have done, you know, the innovation in this industry, those who are driving it and leading it, uh, we have messed up the marketing.

00:46:36.239 --> 00:46:37.760
Oh, for sure.

00:46:37.760 --> 00:46:42.239
Like, like our disruption, uh, disruptive solution.

00:46:42.239 --> 00:46:45.440
And I'm like, look, you want to scare people, call it disruptive.

00:46:45.440 --> 00:46:49.840
Um, that's that superintendent is gonna be like, do not disrupt my site.

00:46:49.840 --> 00:46:51.280
I can barely get the people here.

00:46:51.280 --> 00:46:53.840
If I got to take them off the site, they're not coming back, right?

00:46:53.840 --> 00:46:55.599
All the problems are coming down.

00:46:55.599 --> 00:46:57.840
So the word disruption is not helpful.

00:46:57.840 --> 00:46:58.239
No.

00:46:58.239 --> 00:47:01.599
Um, that's just that's Ryan's pitch for marketing monopoly.

00:47:02.000 --> 00:47:03.119
We got to get away from disruption.

00:47:03.119 --> 00:47:06.800
We got to talk about we're making your life easier, right?

00:47:06.800 --> 00:47:09.760
And and and show them, not just, you know, not to sell.

00:47:09.760 --> 00:47:11.920
I I remember this was years ago.

00:47:11.920 --> 00:47:21.280
Um, I won't name the firm, but we had a firm that that loved to talk about how they had they were they had gone all into you know, innovator pro you know, IPD, right?

00:47:21.280 --> 00:47:24.880
You know, they were IPD and it was bottom up, bottom up for them.

00:47:24.880 --> 00:47:31.440
And then I went out, I was spending a day filming, and I hop in the truck with one of their like top-tier superintendents.

00:47:31.440 --> 00:47:35.840
We get five minutes down the road, and he's like, those guys up at the front office love to talk about IPD.

00:47:35.840 --> 00:47:37.760
I don't know what the hell they're talking about, right?

00:47:37.760 --> 00:47:39.840
You know, like they're pushing down on us.

00:47:39.840 --> 00:47:41.840
And then we went out and spent the day in the job site.

00:47:41.840 --> 00:47:44.400
This guy was one of the most innovative people I've ever seen, right?

00:47:44.400 --> 00:47:51.440
He had refigured, you know, so something got lost in translation, and no one had gone to him and talked to him about it, right?

00:47:51.440 --> 00:47:54.079
So it wasn't that he wasn't capable.

00:47:54.079 --> 00:48:01.840
My day spent with him taught me that this guy could do anything that you asked and could embrace new technology, find new ways to do things.

00:48:01.840 --> 00:48:05.840
He just hadn't been brought into the table in a way that people thought.

00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:09.679
So yeah, you're not connecting the human to the change, right?

00:48:09.679 --> 00:48:14.960
So, like, here's I've described this a little bit earlier, and you you said it exactly right.

00:48:14.960 --> 00:48:16.400
It's lost in translation.

00:48:16.400 --> 00:48:21.519
It is leaders who want to rush through the change because they need it immediately to happen.

00:48:21.519 --> 00:48:28.559
Leaders who believe, like I just say it once and everybody's grasp the vision and the mission, and we're running down the road.

00:48:28.559 --> 00:48:30.719
Well, that's not how it works.

00:48:30.719 --> 00:48:39.199
It doesn't work that way for anyone because it takes, you know, seven to ten times to hear something to actually resonate and recognize it as a human.

00:48:39.199 --> 00:48:45.280
And they're going to, you know, as humans, we go back to the easiest thing in our head.

00:48:45.280 --> 00:48:50.480
So it's the thing that we know that we've already perfected that is made us fast.

00:48:50.480 --> 00:48:58.719
And when we are asked to slow down and introduce new things, like, you know, that is not comfortable.

00:48:58.719 --> 00:49:04.480
Feel like I'm over here churning because I don't know what I'm doing and it's new.

00:49:04.480 --> 00:49:10.559
And we also have this other area where we try it once and it doesn't go the way we thought it was going to go.

00:49:10.559 --> 00:49:13.760
So we put, you know, like you said with the software, you put it aside.

00:49:13.760 --> 00:49:14.320
Yeah.

00:49:14.320 --> 00:49:18.800
Well, what did you ever do the first time where you nailed it?

00:49:18.800 --> 00:49:20.639
It was like your best effort.

00:49:20.639 --> 00:49:23.760
You know, that's not how we work as humans.

00:49:23.760 --> 00:49:32.480
So we're, I always try to get everybody to understand is like we are where we are at being as good as we are because we didn't give up the first time.

00:49:32.480 --> 00:49:34.800
Like we we kept learning from it.

00:49:34.800 --> 00:49:51.519
And I think the industry, you know, one, if we look at the innovation that is happening and it stops becoming, we're selling something into um, we're gonna teach you how this can help you.

00:49:51.519 --> 00:49:57.360
We're gonna teach you how this method of construction works, when you need to integrate it to this technology.

00:49:57.360 --> 00:50:09.599
If we take different approaches, there might be a more willingness to accept, but it isn't gonna work if we don't go to the humans, if we don't engage them in the conversation.

00:50:09.599 --> 00:50:15.199
And that sounds like a huge lift for small companies, let alone large ones.

00:50:15.199 --> 00:50:32.719
But if you're gonna spend all the money on the change and it has that high potential of failure, like why wouldn't you invest the money in the human piece of understanding how they recognize change, how they thought the last one went.

00:50:32.719 --> 00:50:34.960
Like, are they in change fatigue?

00:50:34.960 --> 00:50:42.239
Like getting into their mindset to understand how they're going to engage during that process.

00:50:42.239 --> 00:50:47.360
So we've we've gone through a lot of obstacles um here.

00:50:48.239 --> 00:50:50.960
We've solved all the industry's problems with one conversation.

00:50:50.960 --> 00:50:51.920
No, excuse me.

00:50:52.960 --> 00:51:06.800
No, I I think, well, one, you want to bring it to the to the top because we all know it, we all say it, but we have to recognize our personal opportunity to be a part of it.

00:51:06.800 --> 00:51:07.199
Yeah.

00:51:07.199 --> 00:51:11.039
And I I talk to people all the time on big problems, right?

00:51:11.039 --> 00:51:12.239
Big problems.

00:51:12.239 --> 00:51:17.119
We sit as a human and we'll say, like, well, what role do I actually have to play in this?

00:51:17.119 --> 00:51:19.440
That site superintendent looks at, like, what role?

00:51:19.440 --> 00:51:21.360
I have a project that's what I'm focused on.

00:51:21.360 --> 00:51:21.920
Yeah.

00:51:21.920 --> 00:51:25.119
Well, you have an amazing role to play in it.

00:51:25.119 --> 00:51:40.559
Because if there's eight to ten million of us that are out here doing this, and we all start to shift just ever so slightly into acceptance and trying things and testing them, we're taking a lot of steps into new territory.

00:51:40.559 --> 00:51:43.920
Um, and that's the other thing is like I talk about new territory.

00:51:43.920 --> 00:51:49.280
Like, you're not going to know a lot about it when you first start.

00:51:49.280 --> 00:51:54.000
You are going to gain clarity as you take steps through it.

00:51:54.000 --> 00:52:07.280
Um, the that site superintendent you're talking about can go solve a lot of those problems because they've probably never seen it or maybe seen something similar, but is willing to take an action step, is willing to step into trying to solve it.

00:52:07.280 --> 00:52:14.400
And I that's what makes me so proud about being in the industry or having spent my career in it.

00:52:14.400 --> 00:52:27.039
But like the human still plays a tremendous part to have the technology act like a toll to get, like you said, integrated project delivery.

00:52:27.039 --> 00:52:28.480
Well, that's a delivery model.

00:52:28.480 --> 00:52:30.239
So everyone has to be bought in.

00:52:30.239 --> 00:52:31.840
It still requires the human.

00:52:31.840 --> 00:52:35.599
The process isn't what solves it, the human solves it.

00:52:36.159 --> 00:52:40.639
I mean, I I'm a big believer in there, are bad ideas, right?

00:52:40.639 --> 00:52:43.360
You know, like rebranding cracker barrel.

00:52:43.360 --> 00:52:45.199
It turned out that was a bad idea.

00:52:45.199 --> 00:52:49.920
You know, I'm sure, you know, I'm sure Tang maybe was a bad idea.

00:52:49.920 --> 00:52:54.320
I don't want to like trigger people who are like Coke Zero, yeah, or yeah.

00:52:54.320 --> 00:52:56.400
Well, actually, I like Coke, classic Coke.

00:52:56.400 --> 00:52:58.639
I'm a fan of Coke Zero, but it's a whole other conversation.

00:52:58.639 --> 00:53:07.519
But but I do think that there are relatively few bad ideas, but there are a lot more poorly implemented ideas.

00:53:07.519 --> 00:53:08.000
Yes.

00:53:08.000 --> 00:53:08.400
Right?

00:53:08.400 --> 00:53:12.800
You know, like, and and then we're too quick to say that didn't work, but it's to your point, right?

00:53:12.800 --> 00:53:18.480
Like I this I think it's every generation.

00:53:18.480 --> 00:53:23.440
We just assume that we're gonna try something and we have like zero tolerance for it not being successful.

00:53:23.440 --> 00:53:25.519
But like, think about your personal life.

00:53:25.519 --> 00:53:36.480
If you want to take up a new hobby, you want to take up, I don't know, kite surfing or whatever it is, it do you actually think you're gonna get out there the first day and like be on like the YouTube video for the nation's best kite server?

00:53:36.480 --> 00:53:37.039
No, you're gonna be able to do that.

00:53:37.039 --> 00:53:44.239
You might be on a YouTube video, but yeah, YouTube video for like, you know, I'd be on a YouTube video for how quickly the guy got bloody trying to do something.

00:53:44.239 --> 00:53:47.360
But like, you know, you'll spend weeks at it, you know.

00:53:47.360 --> 00:53:53.599
If you want to be the best, if you want to take up fly fishing, do you really think you're gonna cast the perfect fly on the first try?

00:53:53.599 --> 00:53:54.159
No.

00:53:54.159 --> 00:53:54.480
Yep.

00:53:54.480 --> 00:53:58.159
So think about that when we when we're implementing new ideas at work.

00:53:58.159 --> 00:54:00.079
It's the same thing as in your personal life.

00:54:00.079 --> 00:54:01.199
It's gonna take time.

00:54:01.199 --> 00:54:08.000
You're gonna make some mistakes, but just because you make a mistake the first, second, or third time, is it a bad idea?

00:54:08.000 --> 00:54:11.920
Is it a bad implementation, or is it just we got to figure this out, right?

00:54:11.920 --> 00:54:15.840
Let's just give it a little bit of time, and then we might get the handle of this.

00:54:15.840 --> 00:54:22.320
And then once we get the handle of it and actually know if we're doing it right, and we can decide, oh, wait, that actually was a good idea, or that wasn't a bad idea.

00:54:22.320 --> 00:54:31.440
But, but, but, but, but we need to have, I think, the same self-awareness that we're not gonna be perfect at something new on the first get-go.

00:54:32.000 --> 00:54:32.639
Yeah.

00:54:32.639 --> 00:54:35.119
I'll drop another author that people can listen to.

00:54:35.119 --> 00:54:36.400
It's Amy Edmondson.

00:54:36.400 --> 00:54:36.719
Okay.

00:54:36.719 --> 00:54:37.920
I I talk about her a lot.

00:54:37.920 --> 00:54:42.159
It's like she's from Harvard, but she wrote the right kind of wrong.

00:54:42.159 --> 00:54:49.440
Um, and did a did an analysis of how we think about things like you were just describing.

00:54:49.440 --> 00:54:52.960
And when I read it, I was like, all right, this is fascinating.

00:54:52.960 --> 00:54:56.320
This is how we should be thinking about it as well in construction.

00:54:56.320 --> 00:55:00.800
Um, think about a scientist in a laboratory, right?

00:55:00.800 --> 00:55:10.559
Like they may go in, they go in every day, chemist, whatever, whatever you're part of, like trying to solve a lot of problems within the laboratory.

00:55:10.559 --> 00:55:15.760
Well, just because you got the wrong answer doesn't mean that you're wrong.

00:55:15.760 --> 00:55:23.679
It just puts you one step closer to what the right answer is, or one step closer to finding that solution.

00:55:23.679 --> 00:55:34.000
So when you're working on a project and you're putting something in for the first time, like you've got to be more curious to ask a lot of questions.

00:55:34.000 --> 00:55:38.960
You have to spend more time to go through that discovery to figure it out.

00:55:38.960 --> 00:55:45.280
So I just wanted to bring that up because you you made an excellent point of like, you're not going to get it right the first time.

00:55:45.280 --> 00:55:46.719
Doesn't mean you're wrong.

00:55:46.719 --> 00:55:49.440
Treat it like a lab, like a project.

00:55:49.440 --> 00:55:55.599
I know, and I say this all the time, I know that it's very low profitability as an industry.

00:55:55.599 --> 00:55:56.000
Yes.

00:55:56.000 --> 00:56:02.480
When you think about net profit and you think about all the risks and you think about all those things that aren't happening.

00:56:02.480 --> 00:56:12.960
But I also see the opportunity in we need more housing, we need more healthcare, we need to get into the infrastructure side because it's crumbling.

00:56:12.960 --> 00:56:27.440
And as a nation, you know, within the US and or North America, like if we're not taking care of our infrastructure, like that is a problem for security, national security, and everything else that we have to do.

00:56:27.679 --> 00:56:28.960
Economic security, whatever.

00:56:29.599 --> 00:56:30.719
Whatever it is, yeah.

00:56:30.719 --> 00:56:32.159
Yeah, whatever it is.

00:56:32.159 --> 00:56:50.239
So we can play an enormous part by finding out how we can take a couple of steps, one step by ourselves to take on a bigger something that seems enormous, we can play a part in by just realizing like I don't have to know it all.

00:56:50.239 --> 00:56:51.920
I can make mistakes.

00:56:51.920 --> 00:56:59.599
And if you're a leader, you have to have empathy, even though the transaction may not go exactly how you want it to go.

00:56:59.599 --> 00:57:05.920
Like from a transformational side leader, like that person's learning, that person's developing.

00:57:06.320 --> 00:57:09.280
And have some institutional patience, right?

00:57:09.280 --> 00:57:11.599
You know, like and practice something.

00:57:11.599 --> 00:57:13.440
By the way, I can't wait to join the book club.

00:57:13.440 --> 00:57:24.719
You've you like you obviously you spent a lot more time reading than I or I could quote you like bad science fiction or like that, you know, I'm reading in like an eggnog murder mystery right now because it's the Christmas season when we're recording this.

00:57:24.719 --> 00:57:24.960
Right.

00:57:24.960 --> 00:57:26.800
But I should be reading much better books.

00:57:26.800 --> 00:57:29.519
The the uh I should be on the Ryan Book Club.

00:57:29.599 --> 00:57:46.320
So uh yeah, I'm I'm actually that you know, I'll post this out because I'm trying to get what I want to call the curiosity bookshelf and get some real authors on here that I think would be, you know, helpful for a lot of the listeners who who maybe don't have time to pick up the book.

00:57:46.320 --> 00:57:54.400
But I I just think there's so many people doing good work out there from what they're writing to get us to think about things differently.

00:57:54.400 --> 00:57:56.480
So yeah, that's a that's a passion project.

00:57:56.480 --> 00:57:57.679
There you go.

00:57:57.679 --> 00:58:07.920
Um I think we're already feeling like today, we're feeling decisions that were made 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, right?

00:58:07.920 --> 00:58:21.119
Like we are impacted by choices that were made to how the the country kind of looked at and treated construction, you know, over my lifetime, which is almost 50 years now.

00:58:21.119 --> 00:58:23.519
Like I you and I talked about this.

00:58:23.519 --> 00:58:30.880
That labor force was shrinking since the AGC, what, 1973 talked about what was coming.

00:58:30.880 --> 00:58:36.639
So we're feeling a lot of decisions that were made over those decades.

00:58:36.639 --> 00:58:37.280
Okay.

00:58:37.280 --> 00:58:54.320
So we're sitting here, and then it's 2026 now, and we are making decisions that other future generations to 10 years to 50 years out are going to feel based off of how we we look at some of the problems we've been talking about.

00:58:54.320 --> 00:59:19.840
And in reality, I think it all comes back towards we have a shrinking labor force, we have uh difficulty recruiting, we have difficulty retaining, and uh we have uh this acceptance of technology which could benefit businesses, could benefit the individuals in the in the industry now as well as the future generation that wants to come into it.

00:59:19.840 --> 00:59:35.119
But if we're sitting here today and we know how we feel today, Brian, what do you think success can look like, you know, in that 10-year future if we start taking the right steps?

00:59:35.519 --> 00:59:36.639
That you know, that's a good question.

00:59:36.639 --> 00:59:38.320
Maybe we'll take it by challenge.

00:59:38.320 --> 00:59:45.920
I I think on workforce, and I actually think maybe I'm naively optimistic, Ryan, but I think that pendulum is beginning to swing a little bit.

00:59:45.920 --> 00:59:54.880
But but as an industry, we need to make decisions now to tell a better story of the careers that we offer, right?

00:59:54.880 --> 00:59:56.480
And it's not hard.

00:59:56.480 --> 01:00:03.119
We have, you don't need to go higher at, you know, like A madmen style advertising firm to tell that story.

01:00:03.119 --> 01:00:11.039
Every one of your employees has the tool you need to tell that story connected to the place where you can tell that story.

01:00:11.039 --> 01:00:19.119
Because the next generation and the current generations, even Gen Xers like me are spending time scrolling on social media, right?

01:00:19.119 --> 01:00:28.719
So, you know, finding ways to encourage or empower the people that you work with to tell their story will go a huge way.

01:00:28.719 --> 01:00:34.000
I already, you know, if you I'm not on TikTok, but I'm aware of the existence of TikTok.

01:00:34.000 --> 01:00:43.599
There are there are electricians, there are plumbers on TikTok who spend who post nothing but them solving problems, plumbing problems, electrical problems.

01:00:43.599 --> 01:00:48.880
And they've got a fan viewing that would make you know some aspiring stars blush.

01:00:48.880 --> 01:00:52.239
Uh you know, so we have an opportunity to tell that story.

01:00:52.239 --> 01:01:08.960
So telling that story, and then at the same time, we need to have serious conversations with policymakers about putting a priority back, better aligning our workforce development priorities as a country with our workforce needs.

01:01:08.960 --> 01:01:12.079
38%, I've said this before, forgive me.

01:01:12.079 --> 01:01:15.199
38% of Americans are gonna get a four-year college degree.

01:01:15.199 --> 01:01:16.000
We know that.

01:01:16.000 --> 01:01:17.519
That's a hard number.

01:01:17.519 --> 01:01:25.920
Yet the federal government spends 80% of its money encouraging people for workforce development, encouraging people to get a four-year college degree.

01:01:25.920 --> 01:01:36.960
And only 20% of our federal workforce dollars go to helping the 62% of Americans who are never gonna get a four-year college degree to figure out their career path.

01:01:36.960 --> 01:01:45.679
So and I do think that policy in this country and a lot of other countries, but I get to worry about the US, policy drives culture.

01:01:45.679 --> 01:01:52.559
And you know, we're not making the LA laws of construction, right?

01:01:52.559 --> 01:02:04.800
Or we're not making the um top gun for construction as a movie, in part because we have signaled at the federal level that construction is not a career of choice with our dollars.

01:02:04.800 --> 01:02:05.920
We're not investing it.

01:02:05.920 --> 01:02:07.039
Now that's changing.

01:02:07.039 --> 01:02:19.840
You know, we saw in the one big beautiful bill act that passed earlier this year, you know, they've changed the requirements for how you can use Pelt grant funding, it's a federal grant program for higher education.

01:02:19.840 --> 01:02:22.559
You can now use it for short-term credentialing programs.

01:02:22.559 --> 01:02:32.639
That that's not a huge change in and of itself as a policy, but it is a huge change in the sense that the federal government has finally acknowledged it's got a problem that it needs to fix.

01:02:32.639 --> 01:02:42.719
And we can do more things like boosting funding for workforce training and education, which but but but but they but those elected officials need to hear from the industry, right?

01:02:42.719 --> 01:02:55.199
They need the CEOs and they need the crusty superintendents to call up their elected officials and say, This is nuts, you know, stop telling everyone to go to college and actually provide some training and opportunity to expose people to careers of construction.

01:02:55.199 --> 01:03:16.800
And and then we, you know, we we we can we can not only get more people in this industry, but more broadly, we can fix kind of our career mismatch where we've got a lot of highly educated, underpaid baristas, and we've got a lot of highly paid, underemployed positions like careers and construction, right?

01:03:16.800 --> 01:03:23.679
We could kind of better align what kind of workers produ we're producing as a country with what kind of workers we need.

01:03:23.679 --> 01:03:26.400
So, so doing that now will pay dividends.

01:03:26.400 --> 01:03:30.000
This is the workforce development is the ultimate long game, right?

01:03:30.000 --> 01:03:42.400
Because if you made every, if you got every dollar that we are seeking for workforce development today, that's not gonna produce a new worker for this industry for years to come because that money goes for an eighth grader.

01:03:42.400 --> 01:03:45.440
That's gonna be at least five years before they're in the workforce.

01:03:45.440 --> 01:03:50.079
But if we don't spend it today, we're not gonna have that eighth grader in five years.

01:03:50.079 --> 01:03:50.960
So we got to do that.

01:03:50.960 --> 01:03:52.880
That's the ultimate long game.

01:03:52.880 --> 01:03:53.920
So that's one.

01:03:53.920 --> 01:04:08.480
Technology, we've talked about it, I think, a lot, but just we need to we need to understand the people who will implement technology as much as or more than the technology you're trying to implement, right?

01:04:08.480 --> 01:04:14.800
So making those changes today, making that mindset today, and we need to do a better job identifying the problems we're solving.

01:04:14.800 --> 01:04:23.280
And then, you know, things that we can do in the economy, again, you know, the construction industry does not control the market, right?

01:04:23.280 --> 01:04:26.480
I don't know what controls the free market, but it's not the construction industry.

01:04:26.480 --> 01:04:32.239
We have a role and we we contribute to the broader economy, but we don't drive demand for office buildings.

01:04:32.239 --> 01:04:35.199
We don't set interest rates, we don't set tariff policy.

01:04:35.199 --> 01:04:48.320
But look at wherever 2026 ends up being, whether it's a really a strong year or whether it's a so-so year or whether it's a year where demand is slack in many categories.

01:04:48.320 --> 01:04:58.400
How do we take advantage of those market conditions, good, bad, or ugly, to make sure that we are still investing in the people where we need to be successful?

01:04:58.400 --> 01:05:05.679
Someone said the other day, like, invest in that person and delay the new carpet for your office for another couple of years, right?

01:05:05.679 --> 01:05:08.960
Because the person's gonna make you successful, the carpet's not.

01:05:08.960 --> 01:05:14.639
So I I think changing that mindset now will pay those kind of long-term dividends.

01:05:14.639 --> 01:05:16.960
So anyway, long wind, maybe that's a long-winded answer.

01:05:16.960 --> 01:05:23.920
Maybe I haven't answered your question right, but but if you're if the if the question is, what can you as a contractor do today to kind of make a change?

01:05:23.920 --> 01:05:26.320
I hopefully we've given you a couple ideas there.

01:05:26.639 --> 01:05:27.119
Yeah.

01:05:27.119 --> 01:05:44.719
No, I think it you did answer the question, and actually you you stitch it very well back to that last thing that we were talking about, which is that our impact on the future starts today, and what we feel today, that stuff's already happened, right?

01:05:44.719 --> 01:05:58.719
Like we know that as humans, but we we sometimes forget it, and it's good to be reminded, like delaying any action, delaying you know, taking that step because who am I to be involved in this?

01:05:58.719 --> 01:06:12.159
Like you said, like calling on the policy side or spending time with someone that you work with and having real human connection and conversation, right?

01:06:12.159 --> 01:06:17.519
Which gives, which, which makes things feel more like they're attached to you.

01:06:17.519 --> 01:06:19.440
Like we need that as humans.

01:06:19.440 --> 01:06:30.320
Like we we can't just go in and you know, run a process, answer RFI, sit behind a computer and just walk out without any any sort of human connection.

01:06:30.320 --> 01:06:50.719
And construction does offer an enormous opportunity to build that team um approach to things that I know inside architecture firms, to being in the office on the construction side, like you get to you get a chance to really watch people grow and become the leaders that they needed.

01:06:50.719 --> 01:06:53.039
So yeah, you answered the question.

01:06:53.039 --> 01:07:06.079
And I think all of those steps are, you know, they're so they're so important because I think we're we're we are facing a lot of challenges with the economics, like you said, that are coming.

01:07:06.079 --> 01:07:19.440
And we can sit and we can't change those policies that are driving some of that, but we can begin to work within the construction industry, the full AEC industry.

01:07:19.440 --> 01:07:38.960
I want to kind of start bringing all that together because there are ways to work as developers and architects and engineers and contractors to begin to look at our communities and those things that we need and start to find solutions and how to approach them, even in economic downturn.

01:07:38.960 --> 01:07:39.679
That's right.

01:07:39.679 --> 01:07:42.960
Um, because again, the building is not going to happen.

01:07:42.960 --> 01:07:47.519
Like if you don't have the project now, it's not happening in 2026, it's a 27, 28.

01:07:47.519 --> 01:07:49.280
And for healthcare, it's even further.

01:07:49.280 --> 01:07:49.760
Yeah.

01:07:49.760 --> 01:07:56.000
But but we do have opportunities by starting to rethink how we're looking at the industry.

01:07:56.239 --> 01:07:57.039
I mean, I get it.

01:07:57.039 --> 01:08:00.559
Like so much of construction is about that immediate deadline.

01:08:00.559 --> 01:08:02.400
Where you're like, you know, what's next?

01:08:02.400 --> 01:08:03.679
What's the next phase?

01:08:03.679 --> 01:08:04.880
How do I do it?

01:08:04.880 --> 01:08:09.760
So, in some sense, there's a lot of short-term requirements that you've got to meet.

01:08:09.760 --> 01:08:11.440
There's always the next next.

01:08:11.440 --> 01:08:24.399
But the the the members, the industry, the people, the leaders, the the the folks in the industry that are successful are also spending time while they deal with the short, thinking about the long.

01:08:24.399 --> 01:08:26.000
And you know, they're playing that long.

01:08:26.000 --> 01:08:29.359
You constantly have to play the long game and the short game at the same time.

01:08:29.359 --> 01:08:31.279
And it's it's easier said than done.

01:08:31.279 --> 01:08:37.920
Like, I don't know if I'm always spending the you know enough time on the long game versus the crisis of the inbox as an office worker.

01:08:37.920 --> 01:08:39.920
So how how do we do that?

01:08:39.920 --> 01:08:43.359
Not easy, but it's I I do think it's part of the solution.

01:08:43.600 --> 01:08:44.079
Yeah.

01:08:44.079 --> 01:08:55.680
Well, and I yeah, that you from a change side or the way we think about it, like you have to have a long plan, but you you build the smaller incremental steps and action steps to check in on towards that long plan.

01:08:55.680 --> 01:09:01.199
So that when the fires happen, they they may come in, you may have to take care of them.

01:09:01.199 --> 01:09:12.720
But the other smaller things, the things that you put into you know, smaller digestible um chunks of that greater goal, like you still are taking action steps towards it.

01:09:12.720 --> 01:09:18.960
You're celebrating those things, you're you're seeing the improvement, you know, day by day.

01:09:18.960 --> 01:09:21.279
You don't, it can't be immediate.

01:09:21.279 --> 01:09:25.600
It can't, you know, this a change and a massive overhaul is not an immediate thing.

01:09:25.600 --> 01:09:28.239
But that doesn't mean you ignore.

01:09:28.239 --> 01:09:30.720
And that's what I think we're seeing a lot of times.

01:09:30.720 --> 01:09:36.720
Like you said, you just kind of roll, roll back because the technology didn't work and just kind of ignore it and hope it goes away.

01:09:36.720 --> 01:09:39.680
Well, that's wishful thinking.

01:09:40.399 --> 01:09:41.840
Yeah, no, that's right.

01:09:42.239 --> 01:09:45.199
Well, Brian, I know we've gotten the chance to talk a lot.

01:09:45.199 --> 01:09:47.760
Um, I really appreciate the conversation.

01:09:47.760 --> 01:10:07.119
It I get excited about it when someone who, you know, you did not come from this industry, you and I have talked about that, but you have taken your skill sets and you've come in and you've seen a problem and and gotten into a large uh association and that is being very supportive of its members and to everyone else.

01:10:07.119 --> 01:10:11.439
And there are a ton of resources out on the AGC's website.

01:10:11.439 --> 01:10:36.800
And I, you know, one of the things that I absolutely love that you're doing kind of beyond the project innovation and kind of delivery uh of technology committee and that in the document that you can download with that, but also just love the the culture of care program, which I know is something that that you're involved in as well, which we didn't even get into it, but this industry has a culture issue too.

01:10:36.800 --> 01:10:49.279
And that's part of, I'm sure, something you think about it every day is like we can talk about an image, but if we're not actually doing it, like it doesn't matter because it's all fluff.

01:10:49.520 --> 01:10:57.520
Well, think about, I mean, think about everything we've talked about in the in the last what 70 minutes ultimately is a culture thing, right?

01:10:57.520 --> 01:11:02.720
And and and and and because it's about people and collection of people equals culture.

01:11:02.720 --> 01:11:08.000
And so what we're trying to do with culture care, it started as kind of a workforce tool.

01:11:08.000 --> 01:11:12.560
How do we make job sites more welcoming, more inclusive, right?

01:11:12.560 --> 01:11:17.760
How do we get away from you're new on a job site, you make a mistake, and you get balled out.

01:11:17.760 --> 01:11:47.760
But but we're well, but but it really is a broader tool about how is it that we can, what are the resources and the tools we can provide as a as a trade association for this industry that will help contractors change their culture, initially in the workplace or in the job site, you know, as a recruiting and retention tool, but ultimately also so that you can think about it as, you know, how can you change the culture so that you're you are addressing the mental health needs of this industry?

01:11:47.760 --> 01:11:52.880
How can you change the culture so that you are creating it safer from physical injury?

01:11:52.880 --> 01:12:02.479
How can you create the culture so it is easier to actually successfully adopt new technology or new techniques of doing doing construction?

01:12:02.479 --> 01:12:16.479
It really has become kind of an umbrella for for how we are dealing with kind of the soft skills required to change this industry and to or to make this industry safer or to help address our workforce problems.

01:12:16.479 --> 01:12:19.680
But but it's it's like the foundational challenge.

01:12:19.680 --> 01:12:23.039
Like if we can't fix our culture, we can't really fix anything else.

01:12:23.439 --> 01:12:24.000
Yeah.

01:12:24.000 --> 01:12:29.279
Well, I'm glad you you brought it up that it's all all connected to all the conversation that we have.

01:12:29.279 --> 01:12:33.600
I know the culture of care program is out there on the website as well.

01:12:33.600 --> 01:12:42.159
Um, and I just, you know, it we we forget about it, but it's we have a mental health issue within the industry.

01:12:42.159 --> 01:12:47.199
And, you know, you mentioned kind of those soft skills.

01:12:47.199 --> 01:12:49.920
I like to call them like it's being human.

01:12:49.920 --> 01:13:12.720
Yes, and right if if we can all just start to be a little more human, and actually instead of seeing it as a weakness, like, oh, I'm human, I'm having a feeling today, it's actually a power to recognize that self-awareness, like you were talking earlier, like I am a human, and the rest of us are humans, and we will go through stuff.

01:13:12.720 --> 01:13:19.600
We don't, we're gonna bring our whole self to work, like everything that's going on in our lives, like it's it's inside of our head.

01:13:19.600 --> 01:13:25.680
It's in, and we could try to bury it, we could try to push it down, but we we need to care for one another.

01:13:25.680 --> 01:13:31.520
We need to build cultures that that are inclusive, as you said, to the human.

01:13:31.680 --> 01:13:33.520
And and all the humans involved.

01:13:33.520 --> 01:13:38.960
And I think we're halfway, I actually think by and large, people care about each other in this industry, right?

01:13:38.960 --> 01:13:40.000
Like they're they're right.

01:13:40.000 --> 01:13:44.319
I mean, yeah, they're there are schmoes in any sector of the economy.

01:13:44.319 --> 01:13:54.800
But by and large, that you know, because it's such a collaborative, it's such a teamwork environment, you do actually care, even for selfish reasons, you care about the next person because their success is crucial to your success.

01:13:54.800 --> 01:13:59.039
The challenge is how do we show that care?

01:13:59.039 --> 01:14:09.520
How do we how do we open up and you know, in a in a in a tough work environment where we do tough things, how do we say things like, Are you okay?

01:14:09.520 --> 01:14:10.479
Do you need help?

01:14:10.479 --> 01:14:10.880
Right.

01:14:10.880 --> 01:14:11.199
Right.

01:14:11.199 --> 01:14:13.760
It doesn't make you weak.

01:14:13.760 --> 01:14:23.600
It doesn't make you less skilled as a craft worker or construction professional, um, but it just makes you more human, to your point, right?

01:14:23.600 --> 01:14:25.439
And and and we're getting there, right?

01:14:25.439 --> 01:14:38.479
I mean, I think that just in the last five years, uh, I think this industry has really come to appreciate that like we got to get past that macho, everyone's fine, everyone no ain't no problems here, culture, right?

01:14:38.479 --> 01:14:44.000
Into an environment where, you know, you got to pull someone aside and say, I see you're hurting.

01:14:44.000 --> 01:14:45.439
How what can we do to help you?

01:14:45.439 --> 01:14:47.119
Or I think you need to get help.

01:14:47.119 --> 01:14:51.520
And and, you know, we got a lot of work to do, but we've made a lot of progress.

01:14:51.840 --> 01:14:52.239
Yeah.

01:14:52.239 --> 01:14:52.800
Yeah.

01:14:52.800 --> 01:14:55.520
And I mean, each of those steps is progress, like you're saying.

01:14:55.520 --> 01:15:04.960
And it actually opens up a lot of other opportunities once as we're working towards that to start to take on all these other areas that we sort of focused on.

01:15:04.960 --> 01:15:08.479
So, so Brian, I, you know, you're the PR guy, right?

01:15:08.479 --> 01:15:09.680
For the AGC.

01:15:09.680 --> 01:15:14.079
We've talked about the website, all the resources that are out there, the culture of care.

01:15:14.079 --> 01:15:18.479
There's there's a lot of other things, you know, all the initiatives that you have going on.

01:15:18.479 --> 01:15:19.920
What what did I miss?

01:15:19.920 --> 01:15:24.800
What what do you want to leave the listeners with that that last action step that they could take at their own?

01:15:24.960 --> 01:15:30.640
No, I mean, obviously, you know, visit visit AGC.org if you want to sort of see the breadth of what we do.

01:15:30.640 --> 01:15:34.720
We have a dedicated website for culture care, buildculture.org.

01:15:34.720 --> 01:15:40.000
The only other thing is we've got an enormous amount of resources on workforce issues, right?

01:15:40.000 --> 01:15:49.439
We're including an annual catalog of what this industry is doing right when it comes to workforce development and workforce recruiting, workforce retention.

01:15:49.439 --> 01:15:54.000
And you can find all that on workforce.agc.org.

01:15:54.000 --> 01:15:58.159
And then we haven't talked about it, and I don't, it's it's it's a long conversation.

01:15:58.159 --> 01:16:12.640
We've asked a lot of listeners already, but for those of you in the industry who are worried about immigration and customs enforcement, who are worried about, you know, your workforce, we do have an enormous number of resources available at a site we create.

01:16:12.640 --> 01:16:21.039
We love to create different little sites, but workforcedonewright.org, workforce doneright.org, uh, where you can find out what to do when I shows up at your job site.

01:16:21.039 --> 01:16:31.199
Where there are resources to help your people figure out their legal status and see if they can earn that legal status so they don't have it, or earn that citizenship if they want to become citizens.

01:16:31.199 --> 01:16:38.800
Everything you need when it comes to the kind of the immigration question, which is a we could probably spend hours talking about that.

01:16:38.800 --> 01:16:46.479
And I don't want to open up that candle words right now, but just a shameless plug for if you're worried about those things, workforce donewright.org.

01:16:46.800 --> 01:16:47.439
Yeah.

01:16:47.439 --> 01:16:49.119
Well, thanks for sharing that.

01:16:49.119 --> 01:17:01.039
I will put all of those links into the show notes for listeners and as we put out on the social media because I think all the work that the AGC has done over the decades, which you're doing now.

01:17:01.039 --> 01:17:07.600
And Brian, every time I have a conversation with you, like you just said, I think we could have a whole other conversation.

01:17:07.600 --> 01:17:09.520
It's a great industry areas.

01:17:09.520 --> 01:17:11.920
Yeah, it's such a great industry.

01:17:11.920 --> 01:17:14.319
I know Ace, you know, is out there.

01:17:14.319 --> 01:17:24.319
I'm part of that, getting to mentor young people, tell people to get involved in ACE and go excite the next generation into like why you're passionate about what you're doing.

01:17:24.319 --> 01:17:30.800
So, Brian, I appreciate the opportunity to get a chance to have the conversation and thanks for uh being a part of Activating Curiosity.

01:17:31.520 --> 01:17:32.159
Happy to be here.

01:17:32.159 --> 01:17:32.960
Thanks for having me.

01:17:32.960 --> 01:17:34.720
Always a pleasure to chat, Ryan.

01:17:35.039 --> 01:17:36.319
Yeah, thank you.

01:17:36.319 --> 01:17:40.880
So that is the episode with Brian Turnmail with the AGC.

01:17:40.880 --> 01:18:00.560
And I know we covered a lot, so there's not a lot to kind of sum up, and there's so much good work that the AGC is doing that if you just check out their website, if you're not a member, and even if you're in, you know, the architectural side or engineering side, like I suggest you check it out.

01:18:00.560 --> 01:18:03.279
I'm sure a lot of you are aware of the association.

01:18:03.279 --> 01:18:13.039
You've seen them, you've gone to the events because we're so intertwined on that human connection piece as we're out networking or just getting to know one another.

01:18:13.039 --> 01:18:21.600
That the industry is really shifting into that convergence area where a lot of you probably work in a design build company.

01:18:21.600 --> 01:18:26.960
You work with contractors in your office if you're on the design side and vice versa.

01:18:26.960 --> 01:18:39.600
So there's huge opportunity to collaborate with one another, but to just understand like, hey, you're in the AE side, what can you do to help those within the construction side?

01:18:39.600 --> 01:18:42.880
Like, how can you do things uh to support them?

01:18:42.880 --> 01:18:45.439
Because we need them, you know, from the design side.

01:18:45.439 --> 01:19:01.680
And the same goes for those in the construction side, like understanding what's going on in the architectural world, what's going on in the engineering world, and how can we connect as humans to better understand ourselves and culture as an entire industry?

01:19:01.680 --> 01:19:06.319
Because Brian's role to go do PR isn't fluff.

01:19:06.319 --> 01:19:08.720
Like he said, it's got to be real.

01:19:08.720 --> 01:19:16.960
The gentleman who was telling him five minutes into the car ride, like, I don't even know what we're talking about with integrated project delivery.

01:19:16.960 --> 01:19:25.680
But at the same time, recognizing that this gentleman knows what he's doing on a project site, but is very innovative.

01:19:25.680 --> 01:19:43.359
And we miss those things when we don't have the human connection, we don't think of culture being one of the most important things that allow us to be innovative, to lead technology initiatives in our offices or process changes.

01:19:43.359 --> 01:19:54.239
But the other area that culture side that we talked about is the, you know, being inclusive and the the work that they're doing for women in construction.

01:19:54.239 --> 01:19:59.760
And there's been a lot of stories that none of us want to hear in Alaska.

01:19:59.760 --> 01:20:02.800
Couple months as it relates to women on the project sites.

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So we gotta do better as an industry to be inclusive of women as well as uh minorities.

01:20:12.560 --> 01:20:15.760
Um, he mentioned that as well with the immigration policy.

01:20:15.760 --> 01:20:38.159
But it is going to take every one of us to understand ourselves and each other to take steps forward and to lead the change of our own image that the rest of the world sees or the rest of the communities that we're in about what it is the industry is all about.

01:20:38.159 --> 01:20:40.560
Because you're doing amazing work.

01:20:40.560 --> 01:20:55.119
You are designing spaces, you are designing infrastructure that impact everybody within your community, everybody within the country, and they are enjoying their lives by those experiences.

01:20:55.119 --> 01:21:03.439
So I just want to say thanks again to Brian and thanks again to the AGC and thanks to all of you as listeners.

01:21:03.439 --> 01:21:08.399
Um I know it was a long conversation, hopefully worth every minute of your time.

01:21:08.399 --> 01:21:12.159
Um so until next time, I hope that you stay well.

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I hope that you see a challenge and a problem that you really want to participate in and begin to lead that change.

01:21:20.239 --> 01:21:27.199
Uh, I hope that you're able to continue to activate your curiosity as well as the curiosity within others.

01:21:29.600 --> 01:21:37.760
The Activating Curiosity Podcast is brought to you by Connective Consulting Group and Connective Curtain part of the Curiosity Company Creative.

01:21:37.760 --> 01:21:41.359
If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe.

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Until next time, keep leading with curiosity.