Nov. 11, 2025

Human-Centric Leadership: The Future of Construction

Human-Centric Leadership: The Future of Construction

Summary In this episode, Ryan interviews Angelo Suntres, founder of 'The Human Side of Construction,' discussing the importance of empathy and human-centric leadership in the construction industry. They explore the challenges of generational change, the need for collaboration, and the impact of embracing change to create a more inclusive and effective industry. Takeaways Empathy is crucial in transforming construction leadership.Generational change requires bridging gaps between old and new m...

Apple Podcasts podcast player iconSpotify podcast player iconYoutube Music podcast player iconAmazon Music podcast player iconiHeartRadio podcast player iconDeezer podcast player iconGoodpods podcast player iconCastro podcast player iconCastbox podcast player iconRSS Feed podcast player icon
Apple Podcasts podcast player iconSpotify podcast player iconYoutube Music podcast player iconAmazon Music podcast player iconiHeartRadio podcast player iconDeezer podcast player iconGoodpods podcast player iconCastro podcast player iconCastbox podcast player iconRSS Feed podcast player icon
Construction LeadershipChange ManagementConstruction InnovationConstruction IndustryBuilding TrustSelf-ImprovementOrganizational CultureWorkforce DevelopmentLeadership Development Programs

Summary

In this episode, Ryan interviews Angelo Suntres, founder of 'The Human Side of Construction,' discussing the importance of empathy and human-centric leadership in the construction industry. They explore the challenges of generational change, the need for collaboration, and the impact of embracing change to create a more inclusive and effective industry.

Takeaways

  • Empathy is crucial in transforming construction leadership.
  • Generational change requires bridging gaps between old and new mindsets.
  • Collaboration is key to future success in construction.
  • Human-centric leadership can improve industry productivity.
  • Embracing change is essential for industry growth.
  • The construction industry needs to be more inclusive.
  • Understanding human needs can enhance workplace dynamics.
  • Effective leadership involves recognizing and valuing employees.
  • The future of construction relies on innovative thinking.
  • Building a better industry requires collective effort.

Chapters

  • 00:00:00 Introduction and Background
  • 00:03:00 The Human Side of Construction
  • 00:09:00 Generational Challenges and Change
  • 00:15:00 Collaboration and Leadership
  • 00:21:00 Embracing Change and Inclusivity
  • 00:27:00 Future of the Industry and Closing Thoughts

Related episodes: Ep 10: for Construction Leadership Development. 

Guest 

Angelo, founder of the Human Side of Construction, is a seasoned operations leader, speaker and author with a passion for improving the construction industry at the intersection of strategy and people. With a career spanning leadership roles throughout construction, Angelo brings a unique and refreshing perspective on the future of the industry.

Angelo is also the author of “Human Side of Construction” and “Rebuild Construction” where he shares practical frameworks and insights for leaders navigating today’s complex business landscape.

His engaging style combines storytelling, actionable strategies, and a deep understanding of human behavior, making his sessions both inspiring and practical.

Whether speaking to executives or emerging leaders, Angelo’s mission is clear: to empower construction professionals to lead with connection, adaptability, and purpose in an evolving world.

https://www.angelosuntres.com/

https://hso

Send us your thoughts, ideas, questions

Connective Consulting Group
Helping construction leaders simplify change, strengthen trust, and move forward with clarity.

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Support the show

Follow Ryan at the following:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryankware/

https://www.linkedin.com/company/connective-consulting-group-llc

https://connectiveconsultinggrp.com/

https://connective-coaching.com/

https://ryanware.me/

Don't miss out on future episodes! Subscribe now and stay informed about the latest trends and insights in the construction industry.

If this show helps you, please consider supporting it. Just $3/month helps cover production and keeps the conversations going.

⭐ “Love the show? Toss some stars my way, it’s the easiest applause ever.

WEBVTT

00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:03.040
As a leader, you have to kind of change the mindset of construction.

00:00:03.040 --> 00:00:07.519
Stop thinking like the hardest worker is not necessarily the best leader, A.

00:00:07.519 --> 00:00:13.839
And B, everybody comes with their own sets of experiences: good, bad, indifferent, baggage has traumas.

00:00:13.839 --> 00:00:16.559
There's tons of past traumas, especially site workers in the industry.

00:00:16.559 --> 00:00:27.039
If you watch a worker get critically injured, or God forbid, site fatality, you're telling me that's not gonna mess you up and you're not gonna take that for the rest of your career when you're performing that task or going to work.

00:00:27.039 --> 00:00:30.879
But historically it's been like, oh, you know, be a man, grow up pear, just suck it up.

00:00:30.879 --> 00:00:32.640
We're tough, rough, tough construction workers.

00:00:32.640 --> 00:00:34.719
You can't acknowledge your feelings.

00:01:18.560 --> 00:01:20.799
Hey, Angelo, welcome to Activating Curiosity.

00:01:20.799 --> 00:01:25.120
Hey, Ryan, thanks for having me on and excited about the conversation uh we're gonna have today.

00:01:25.120 --> 00:01:26.400
Yeah, absolutely.

00:01:26.400 --> 00:01:33.680
I think uh loved uh getting a chance to kind of listen to your book a little bit and looking forward to the conversation.

00:01:33.680 --> 00:01:38.400
I think you have uh a lot of impact that you've been making out there in construction industry.

00:01:38.400 --> 00:01:40.159
So it is going to be a great conversation.

00:01:40.159 --> 00:01:45.439
We want to make sure that we're activating a lot of minds to think differently about a lot of the things that you're discussing.

00:01:45.439 --> 00:01:50.719
So, with that, why don't you go ahead and tell us a little bit about yourself and uh then we'll dive into the show.

00:01:51.200 --> 00:01:51.680
Sure, yeah.

00:01:51.680 --> 00:01:53.040
So uh my name is Angelo.

00:01:53.040 --> 00:02:00.239
I've been do working in construction now 20 years, um, mostly on the mechanical subtrade side, mechanical engineering background.

00:02:00.239 --> 00:02:02.719
Uh kind of a funny story how I ended up in construction.

00:02:02.719 --> 00:02:04.400
Maybe we'll get into that a little bit.

00:02:04.400 --> 00:02:22.719
But as my passion grew for the industry and my responsibilities and my career trajectory kind of grew the way I always wanted it to, along with that came the frustration that I saw with how the industry operated, particularly at the human level, connecting to people as people and uh, you know, the transactional nature and the litigation and all that stuff that comes with it.

00:02:22.719 --> 00:02:25.919
So that kind of spawned the human side of construction.

00:02:25.919 --> 00:02:32.080
And uh so now I'm working, I'm still full-time in construction, so I'm director of ops for a mid-sized mechanical here in Canada.

00:02:32.080 --> 00:02:37.520
And I also work on with companies and individuals to essentially make the industry a better place.

00:02:37.840 --> 00:02:46.800
So yeah, I mean you're still doing full-time work and you have found time to to dive into this passion piece, something that caught your caught your eye.

00:02:47.680 --> 00:02:58.479
Yeah, so it's so it started uh just kind of as a fluke on posting on social media, and then once I found the the potential and how the message resonated with so many people, it kind of grew into a side hustle.

00:02:58.479 --> 00:03:00.719
And now uh, you know, who knows where it's gonna go.

00:03:00.719 --> 00:03:03.280
But uh it's been a fun journey so far.

00:03:04.560 --> 00:03:10.800
Well, it's it I'm glad you did find that time and that you have found kind of a reason to dive into it.

00:03:10.800 --> 00:03:19.599
Um so with that, you know, really the first question that we want to we want to understand is you you you were working, you found yourself in the industry.

00:03:19.599 --> 00:03:21.039
There's a funny story there.

00:03:21.039 --> 00:03:23.840
You you can dive into it, feel free with that as well.

00:03:23.840 --> 00:03:36.319
But the side hustle, you you saw something, you saw a problem that you were aiming to solve, and and kind of why that you you felt the need that, hey, I have a full-time job, I should start to address this.

00:03:36.879 --> 00:03:41.840
Yeah, so I'll take you back to uh probably 1992.

00:03:41.840 --> 00:03:47.599
I was eight or nine, I was in my uh parents' restaurant, like every good Greek Canadian, they got into the restaurant industry.

00:03:47.599 --> 00:03:54.159
So I was sitting in the back uh with my old man, and I looked up to him and I said, you know, wouldn't it be cool if I took over the restaurant one day?

00:03:54.159 --> 00:03:56.080
And I remember the look on his face.

00:03:56.080 --> 00:03:57.599
It was very stern.

00:03:57.599 --> 00:04:02.080
It was not what I was expecting, coming from like a loving moment like that, looking up to your father.

00:04:02.080 --> 00:04:05.360
And he goes, No, you're going to school, you're gonna work from the neck up.

00:04:05.360 --> 00:04:08.719
So, you know, loud and clear, took that message.

00:04:08.719 --> 00:04:13.280
I still ended up working in the restaurant for 10 years and learned kind of the hard knocks of life there.

00:04:13.280 --> 00:04:19.600
But that's when I got into engineering, uh, because my parents were big on getting an education, which is something they didn't have, right?

00:04:19.600 --> 00:04:22.079
Every generation wants better for their kids than they had.

00:04:22.079 --> 00:04:29.920
So I kind of followed that traditional path, took mechanical engineering, graduated, thought, okay, I'm gonna be the best uh HVAC engineer in the world.

00:04:29.920 --> 00:04:35.199
I'm gonna design ducting systems, because that's you know, was the ultimate thing for me.

00:04:35.199 --> 00:04:40.240
Thank God, luckily, I didn't end up in that and ended up working in construction.

00:04:40.240 --> 00:04:47.120
And the fluke was, you know, I graduated mid-2000s, so we were coming out of a recession, and there weren't many jobs around.

00:04:47.120 --> 00:04:52.000
And uh so I was looking for a job as a consultant and you know, nothing was coming up.

00:04:52.000 --> 00:05:06.000
I was basically running out of money, I was living on my own and uh needed to pay the bills, so I started applying to random jobs, ended up working for an M ⁇ E contractor or MEP, I guess you call it in the States, in uh in East Coast of Canada.

00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:08.399
And that's how I kind of fell into the industry.

00:05:08.399 --> 00:05:12.240
And what I noticed really early on is it's super technical, right?

00:05:12.240 --> 00:05:19.040
It's very hard skills, uh, you know, math, accounting, process-driven RFIs, SIs, all that stuff.

00:05:19.040 --> 00:05:21.279
And that's where all the training was focused.

00:05:21.279 --> 00:05:28.959
But what I could see happening behind the scenes was especially when you get to a supervisor level or higher, you're you're dealing with people.

00:05:28.959 --> 00:05:31.519
The technical skills go away, and you're dealing with people.

00:05:31.519 --> 00:05:35.839
Even when you're on site as a journeyman on the tools, you're interacting with the trait next year, right?

00:05:35.839 --> 00:05:46.639
So and what I kind of started to focus on more and more is despite the fact that that's where a lot of the energy is spent, uh, there's very little training on it.

00:05:46.639 --> 00:05:52.720
You know, how to have difficult conversations, how to resolve conflict, even just understanding basic human psychology, how people tick.

00:05:52.720 --> 00:05:58.959
You don't need a four-year degree to understand that if you're actually, if you act a certain way, it's gonna upset somebody else.

00:05:58.959 --> 00:06:02.079
So that was one element of the human side of construction.

00:06:02.079 --> 00:06:14.560
And the other one was, you know, once you get in behind the curtain and you see the pride and the amazing things that can be done within the construction industry, I thought to myself, why the hell don't more people know about this?

00:06:14.560 --> 00:06:17.839
Like it's not at that time, it wasn't promoted in schools.

00:06:17.839 --> 00:06:19.279
Nobody really talked about it.

00:06:19.279 --> 00:06:25.439
It was just looked down upon as a job you could get into if you didn't do well in school or something to fall back on.

00:06:25.439 --> 00:06:26.879
But there's a huge potential.

00:06:26.879 --> 00:06:30.639
So essentially the human side of construction, I always say it's kind of two prongs.

00:06:30.639 --> 00:06:43.920
One is uh improving awareness and understanding of the industry to the external population, but also more importantly is improving the human experience within it because we don't do a very good job in how we lead and how we treat our people.

00:06:44.160 --> 00:06:46.000
I think that's such an important point.

00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:52.959
And I hear I hear it from like a lot of different associations and things, and I I don't like the word soft skills.

00:06:52.959 --> 00:06:54.399
It is I don't know how you feel about it.

00:06:54.399 --> 00:06:55.120
I don't like it.

00:06:55.120 --> 00:06:57.680
Um they're humans.

00:06:57.680 --> 00:07:08.480
And and with humans, like it doesn't matter where what your background is or where you came from, your mind works the same, it functions the same.

00:07:08.480 --> 00:07:30.959
So what you just said about hey, you should be able to recognize without a degree, how something you're doing is impacting someone else in order to support them through something or or help them grow, um, you know, from them, their aspect and and knowledge and talent.

00:07:30.959 --> 00:07:39.199
Um, but you know, backing up then, you know, as you got into this, because you like you said, your dad's like, hey, you're not gonna follow my path.

00:07:39.199 --> 00:07:43.040
I've done that a little bit with my kids since I got into construction.

00:07:43.040 --> 00:07:53.199
Um but you the that moment that you started to see that, like what was it that made you say, hey, this is a problem.

00:07:53.199 --> 00:07:55.279
It seems universal.

00:07:55.279 --> 00:08:00.160
And you as one person, like, I need to dive in and do this.

00:08:00.160 --> 00:08:01.759
I need to dive in and figure this out.

00:08:01.759 --> 00:08:04.240
Like, what was it that really set you off?

00:08:04.560 --> 00:08:06.800
There were a couple moments really early on.

00:08:06.800 --> 00:08:11.920
Um I can think back to the first within the first two weeks of when I started working.

00:08:11.920 --> 00:08:14.959
Because, you know, as I mentioned, I'm an engineering graduate.

00:08:14.959 --> 00:08:20.160
I started working for a construction company and they put me in a service truck with an HVAC technician.

00:08:20.160 --> 00:08:24.160
Okay, and we I was running around doing service calls with them, just observing.

00:08:24.160 --> 00:08:27.439
I remember thinking to myself, like, what the hell am I doing here?

00:08:27.439 --> 00:08:28.959
Like, I'm an engineering graduate.

00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:41.039
They told me I was gonna be making six figures, I was gonna be telling people what to do, I was gonna be this big professional and riding around with this gruff HVAC technician who's like listening to rock music and like smoking in the truck.

00:08:41.039 --> 00:08:47.039
And I was like, but we went to a call and it was uh uh an issue in a mechanical room.

00:08:47.039 --> 00:08:54.399
So we walked into the mechanical room and I was looking around, kind of a little bit dough-eyed because you know I hadn't been in one before.

00:08:54.399 --> 00:08:58.080
And uh the guy was with Robert Thompson goes, Hey, Mr.

00:08:58.080 --> 00:08:59.279
Engineer, do you know what that is?

00:08:59.279 --> 00:09:01.679
And he pointed at this big metal thing.

00:09:01.679 --> 00:09:03.840
And I said, No, Robert, I don't have any idea.

00:09:03.840 --> 00:09:05.200
He goes, That's a chiller.

00:09:05.200 --> 00:09:09.919
And it hit me like a ton of bricks because I remember learning about chillers.

00:09:09.919 --> 00:09:11.600
I remember looking in textbooks.

00:09:11.600 --> 00:09:13.759
I remember learning about pumps and valves.

00:09:13.759 --> 00:09:18.159
I had no idea what they were or what they did, but I remember seeing it in the book.

00:09:18.159 --> 00:09:19.679
And that that's where it hit me.

00:09:19.679 --> 00:09:22.240
It was like, you don't know what you don't know.

00:09:22.240 --> 00:09:26.240
And there's a lot, and as my career kind of progressed, I kept that in mind.

00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:29.759
Because even within construction, you can have subject matter experts.

00:09:29.759 --> 00:09:38.960
But every trade, every discipline is so vast and deep and unique, you can never know everything about one topic, let alone the whole industry.

00:09:38.960 --> 00:09:43.840
So that's where it was, you know, taking that learner's mindset and just being curious.

00:09:43.840 --> 00:09:52.240
But then you couple that with the human tendency to hide your vulnerabilities and not admit that you don't know something, which introduces problems on site with ego.

00:09:52.240 --> 00:10:06.799
And the other moment that I mentioned there were two, the other one was the first time I saw like a confrontation on site, two guys arguing, because one guy had his pipe going this way, another guy had his duct in the way, and these guys were literally like not physically fighting, but they were screaming at each other.

00:10:06.799 --> 00:10:10.559
I was like, why don't you just talk about it and figure it out?

00:10:10.559 --> 00:10:12.879
There's probably 10 solutions, you know?

00:10:12.879 --> 00:10:13.200
Right.

00:10:13.200 --> 00:10:26.879
And uh, and that's that was probably the first moment early on that I I recognized this human side and how it's like, okay, something's going on here that people don't pay attention to, but it's super critical and foundational to the work we do every day.

00:10:27.759 --> 00:10:28.399
Yeah.

00:10:28.399 --> 00:10:34.720
I mean, those stories, I I think everybody probably has them, and you recognize that I've seen them.

00:10:34.720 --> 00:10:43.120
You know, I think about a I think about a site superintendent that was going through a divorce when I was younger and watching the disaster that was happening in front of me.

00:10:43.120 --> 00:10:51.600
There was a transactional piece of the project going south, but there was this human on the other side of it who was really going through stuff.

00:10:51.600 --> 00:10:55.360
And it was like, like, that's tough.

00:10:55.360 --> 00:11:06.159
Um, how can you have, you know, you're you're supposed to be rough and tough in this industry and go through all these things, but at the same time, like have enough empathy to be like, this guy's feeling.

00:11:06.159 --> 00:11:08.639
Yeah, I mean, he's he's feeling a lot right now.

00:11:08.639 --> 00:11:15.120
So I appreciate you sharing that and and then that you recognize it like, hey, this isn't okay.

00:11:15.120 --> 00:11:25.200
It sounds like you got a little bit of like, hey, let's test you, you know, college grad, let's test you on something, and I'm going to prove you wrong that you you don't know everything.

00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:41.279
So there's a lot of areas that could go into that because I think you started getting into without saying it, you know, almost this we we've talked transactional, but this psychological safety of feeling like, hey, it's okay to not know.

00:11:41.279 --> 00:11:46.159
It's okay to try to treat it like a laboratory and kind of test.

00:11:46.159 --> 00:12:13.840
So how have you seen that that human side as you've evolved through your career and you you've you're now in a leadership role, you're in operation, like like what are you what are you seeing like from another other standpoint of like not accepting this sort of approach to leadership that you're stressing up, you know, this is this is how you become a transformational leader.

00:12:14.159 --> 00:12:14.559
Yeah.

00:12:14.559 --> 00:12:25.519
Well, that's really interesting because you know, when you make the transition from a contributor to a leader or manager, like the I don't want to confuse the terms leader and manager because those are two different things, right?

00:12:25.519 --> 00:12:26.399
Manager is a title.

00:12:26.399 --> 00:12:28.799
Leader you can lead from any level.

00:12:28.799 --> 00:12:38.799
So I always kind of saw myself as a leader in the sense that, you know, from early on I could tell if somebody like you mentioned, if they're having a divorce, they're going through a tough time, just recognizing that and acknowledging it.

00:12:38.799 --> 00:12:40.240
And it's something I'm still working on.

00:12:40.240 --> 00:12:42.480
And I didn't get until well into my 30s.

00:12:42.480 --> 00:12:54.080
But the ideas of empathy and compassion and just validating people's existence and feelings, not, you know, don't have to agree with it, but to acknowledge it and validate it, it there's a huge power in that.

00:12:54.080 --> 00:12:58.080
And uh, but as an individual contributor, I was limited in what I could do.

00:12:58.080 --> 00:13:00.879
And I was always like helping to diffuse situations.

00:13:00.879 --> 00:13:05.840
But at the end of the day, it was like, you know what, this guy's being a jerk to me, not my problem, just kind of shut him out.

00:13:05.840 --> 00:13:17.039
But now when you make the transition into a formal supervisory role management and a true leader with authority and responsibility, it's super important to connect with your people at that level.

00:13:17.039 --> 00:13:25.600
And I've seen so many people fail at it because what happens in construction, especially on site, if you're really good on the tools and you're a hard worker and you show up to work, do a good job every day.

00:13:25.600 --> 00:13:32.480
Oh, you know, Ryan's a great uh journeyman, let's make him a foreman because he's good at but that you know, not every good player makes a good coach.

00:13:32.480 --> 00:13:36.399
Michael Jordan, Wayne Gretzky, there's probably other examples too.

00:13:36.399 --> 00:13:45.919
So uh as a leader, we have to kind of change the mindset of construction, stop thinking like the hardest worker is not necessarily the best leader, A.

00:13:45.919 --> 00:13:52.879
And B, everybody comes with their own sets of experiences: good, bad, indifferent, baggage, past traumas.

00:13:52.879 --> 00:13:55.840
There's tons of past traumas, especially site workers in the industry.

00:13:55.840 --> 00:14:07.759
You know, if you watch a worker get critically injured, or God forbid, uh work site fatality, you're telling me that's not gonna mess you up and you're not gonna take that for the rest of your career when you're performing that task or going to work.

00:14:07.759 --> 00:14:12.480
But historically, it's been like, oh, you know, be a man, grow a pear, just suck it up.

00:14:12.480 --> 00:14:14.320
We're tough, rough, tough construction workers.

00:14:14.320 --> 00:14:15.919
You can't acknowledge your feelings.

00:14:15.919 --> 00:14:19.039
And that trickles into the office, too, by the way, not just the site.

00:14:19.039 --> 00:14:21.519
So we we really need to break that down.

00:14:22.960 --> 00:14:28.799
Yeah, you're talking, you're talking about mindset and even generational.

00:14:28.799 --> 00:14:33.440
Like you talk a lot about this in your book, um, you know, Rebuild Construction, right?

00:14:33.440 --> 00:14:39.840
So I focus a lot on that change and our mindsets around it, and you're talking about it, right?

00:14:39.840 --> 00:14:48.240
So that maybe diving into that because while there's generational divide in that, hey, we're supposed to be rough tough, especially men, right?

00:14:48.240 --> 00:14:54.080
Oh, men, you're supposed to be this way, you're not supposed to show any emotions, you're not supposed to have any feelings.

00:14:54.080 --> 00:14:58.720
The next generations are that's not the case.

00:14:58.720 --> 00:15:06.559
So you know, part of it is our you you mentioned this earlier, and I love it too.

00:15:06.559 --> 00:15:16.399
Like sometimes we're afraid to admit when what we're doing now is actually wrong given the situation.

00:15:16.399 --> 00:15:23.519
Versus before, maybe whether it was right or wrong, it fit the situation that we were in.

00:15:23.519 --> 00:15:28.240
But you've alluded to this, like our current situation and the future situation, right?

00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:31.360
They're not going to be the same.

00:15:31.679 --> 00:15:40.240
So yeah, at the heart of it, to kind of sum it up, is the way the industry has operated over the last few decades is just not going to continue.

00:15:40.240 --> 00:15:49.840
I think it's been going the way because of momentum and a lot of the old school uh thoughts and old school way of doing things, rough, tough, screaming, yelling.

00:15:49.840 --> 00:15:50.639
It worked.

00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:51.679
It worked very well.

00:15:51.679 --> 00:15:57.120
In the short term, it always does, but it it does not build a long-term sustainable future.

00:15:57.120 --> 00:16:03.360
And the way that kids are taught these days, some people will throw around words like woke and all that stuff.

00:16:03.360 --> 00:16:04.480
They're just different.

00:16:04.480 --> 00:16:07.600
And you're not gonna change the way that they are.

00:16:07.600 --> 00:16:15.120
And you're not so that it's it's an interesting thing because you've got the older generation who they're not gonna change because they're used to doing things the same way.

00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:26.320
You've got the younger generation that's not gonna change, and you have this transitional leadership that's happening now, the millennials who are now taking in senior level rules that are responsible for making this whole thing work.

00:16:26.320 --> 00:16:29.840
The people at this end of the spectrum, oh, I'm not gonna change.

00:16:29.840 --> 00:16:31.600
I have two, five years left in retirement.

00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:37.919
Why should I feel uncomfortable and deal with change and fear what the unknown, which essentially you deal with change, you know what that's what it's all about.

00:16:37.919 --> 00:16:38.399
Right.

00:16:38.399 --> 00:16:38.879
Right.

00:16:38.879 --> 00:16:41.200
But we have to do it, guys.

00:16:41.200 --> 00:16:42.080
We have to do it.

00:16:42.080 --> 00:16:50.799
And I honestly, those old school construction guys who will just say, Oh, kids are lazy these days, or they're they're pansies because they talk about their feelings.

00:16:50.799 --> 00:16:52.639
I just want to I want to grab them, Ryan.

00:16:52.639 --> 00:16:57.279
I want to give them a big hug and say, you don't need to do this anymore.

00:16:57.279 --> 00:16:58.480
I I thank you.

00:16:58.480 --> 00:17:00.000
I appreciate you.

00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:06.000
At one point, this is how it was, and thank you for what you did, but you don't have to do this anymore.

00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:08.240
You know, it's almost like a goodwill hunting moment.

00:17:08.240 --> 00:17:11.119
You know the scene in Goodwill Hunting where he says, It's not your fault.

00:17:11.119 --> 00:17:13.039
And Matt Damon says, I know, I know.

00:17:13.039 --> 00:17:14.160
It's not your fault.

00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:14.960
And he breaks down.

00:17:14.960 --> 00:17:16.079
I think that's what we need.

00:17:16.079 --> 00:17:17.359
I don't know, tell me I'm crazy.

00:17:17.440 --> 00:17:26.160
And no, I it's a great, well, one, it's a great point on on you know how it kind of came out on goodwill hunting, but it's true.

00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:33.759
And I think that again, we hold on to things that we can feel are not correct anymore.

00:17:33.759 --> 00:17:38.000
Maybe, maybe irrelevancy is is part of it.

00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:44.400
Like I'm afraid, I'm embarrassed to say that it doesn't work anymore, or I'm I feel like I'm becoming irrelevant.

00:17:44.400 --> 00:17:46.319
And nobody likes that.

00:17:46.319 --> 00:17:48.880
No one wants to feel that way.

00:17:48.880 --> 00:17:56.960
But you're right in this, and I love what you said is like giving them a hug, but saying, it's okay.

00:17:56.960 --> 00:18:01.119
Like, you don't have to feel this way or that way anymore.

00:18:01.119 --> 00:18:28.240
Like we need to, we need we need to be able to help them become willing participants, perhaps in the change of like there there you still have relevancy in helping us upskill, but the situations are now changing, and maybe the tools are changing and the delivery models are changing, or the solutions might be changing to where that next generation does have an upper upper hand on you.

00:18:28.240 --> 00:18:29.279
That's okay.

00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:48.640
Um because we don't want and you allude to this a lot too, is we cannot bring in enough talent into the industry, and we have a bucket that you know the AGC here in the States will say it's empty, it's constantly in an emptying mode.

00:18:48.640 --> 00:19:07.200
So if the older generation, you know, they've they've built something great as an industry that had something that worked then, their legacy is what do you want to leave behind for those next generations, not just in the building.

00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:08.559
So that's how I think about it.

00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:17.759
I don't know what you think about that, but I'm like, hey, you do have a role in transitioning to a new industry, to a new view of the industry.

00:19:18.079 --> 00:19:22.480
And being being challenged doesn't isn't somebody saying you're wrong.

00:19:22.480 --> 00:19:27.039
Okay, there and I'm the first one to say it's it's in the first chapter of my book, Construction Sucks.

00:19:27.039 --> 00:19:28.000
That's the title of the chapter.

00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:31.359
Some people see that and probably like, I'm not gonna read anymore because this guy's an idiot.

00:19:31.359 --> 00:19:34.319
But if you read on, it's not the whole industry.

00:19:34.319 --> 00:19:36.240
You can't throw the baby out with the bath water.

00:19:36.240 --> 00:19:39.359
There are so many neat things about being in the industry.

00:19:39.359 --> 00:19:42.720
And yeah, it is tough mentally, physically, emotionally.

00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:43.680
It's very tough.

00:19:43.680 --> 00:19:45.680
You have to have grit, and it's not for everybody.

00:19:45.680 --> 00:19:50.079
But for the people that it's suited to that have the right personality, it can be life-changing, man.

00:19:50.079 --> 00:19:55.680
Both on site, in the office, whatever, even in finance, because there's so many support systems within uh construction.

00:19:55.680 --> 00:20:04.240
So one good thing we've done, and I'm interested to get your take on this, one good thing I think we've done is doing more to promote the construction industry.

00:20:04.240 --> 00:20:11.279
You got guys like Mike Rowe sending out awesome messages about the shortages and getting people, and there's lots of you know engagement there and traction.

00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:14.160
Government, you know, there's incentives, they're pushing people in.

00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:16.480
High schools, we're getting it in even younger now.

00:20:16.480 --> 00:20:21.599
Elementary schools are being taught about uh options for the trades, uh, which is which is great.

00:20:21.599 --> 00:20:28.960
And there's other elements we can touch on around neurodivergence and the understanding there and how a lot of neurodivergent folks end up in blue-collar jobs.

00:20:28.960 --> 00:20:31.759
But that's all good, good stuff.

00:20:31.759 --> 00:20:34.160
But Ryan, you're this is your business.

00:20:34.160 --> 00:20:44.799
What have we done within the industry to accept these different generations, these different mindsets, these different philosophies that are now there's a huge influx into the industry?

00:20:44.799 --> 00:20:49.839
Because what I see is, yeah, you know, go into construction, you can make six figures.

00:20:49.839 --> 00:20:51.759
It's a great, it's a rewarding industry.

00:20:51.759 --> 00:20:53.440
Do we tell them the whole story?

00:20:53.440 --> 00:20:59.119
Because when they show up the first day on site and they're handed a shovel to dig a hole, they might be like, nobody told me about this.

00:20:59.119 --> 00:21:07.599
Or when they get their first paycheck and realize they're making the same as uh Burger King flipping burgers because it takes time to get put in your five-year apprenticeship and get to that next level.

00:21:07.599 --> 00:21:09.759
So it's great that we're funneling people in.

00:21:09.759 --> 00:21:16.480
But my concern is when they get in and peep behind the curtain, they're gonna be like, this isn't what I signed up for, and they're gonna leave.

00:21:16.480 --> 00:21:19.279
Not all of them, but I think a good number of them.

00:21:19.279 --> 00:21:20.079
So I don't know.

00:21:20.079 --> 00:21:22.400
Tell me if I'm wrong or your thoughts on that.

00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:26.799
No, it's you're you're you're spot on because it's not just, I think, in the trades.

00:21:26.799 --> 00:21:30.720
I think we're seeing in the office, and I think we see it in engineering and we see it in architecture.

00:21:30.720 --> 00:21:33.039
Um, but I I you you're right.

00:21:33.039 --> 00:21:54.799
Backing up into like here, Ace, uh, which is uh a national organization where we go into high schools and try to get students to understand more about architecture, engineering, instruction, and how they might be able to take part of it as a as a career choice that might be different than than others.

00:21:54.799 --> 00:22:05.759
The but you're but you're right in the sense of like we do give there's a falsity into what it actually is.

00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:20.480
And I think that the this is my belief, like if there aren't going to be enough humans to even fill into it, like we need to create an industry that is around bringing people in to do things.

00:22:20.480 --> 00:22:31.920
One, be honest with them, two, yes, it takes hard work, but that doesn't mean burnout has to be the bar for architects or engineers, or or that you have to be rough and tough.

00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:33.200
Yes, it takes strength.

00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:38.319
Yes, you gotta hoist beams, but we're not building pyramids anymore.

00:22:38.319 --> 00:23:08.960
There's a lot of technology that the future generations, you know, whether it's additive manufacturing to robotics and these things, that they might be partaking in to bring an advantage into it where they're like, hey, this is an industry that's worthwhile that's purposeful in the fact that we're building better housing at a lower cost to get people out of poverty in house poor situations because I don't know how it is in Canada, I think it's the same.

00:23:08.960 --> 00:23:10.960
We can't get enough housing units here.

00:23:10.960 --> 00:23:20.720
And we can't do it because we there aren't enough labors from from all areas and aspects in residential building to commercial.

00:23:20.720 --> 00:23:29.039
But we can't even get through, you know, the permitting and all those processes because there aren't enough people to even do all the reviews of that.

00:23:29.039 --> 00:23:42.480
So the whole like the industry, everyone thinks like the industry is this small little thing that's just trades or contractors, and it's like it's there's so many people that it takes to do this.

00:23:42.480 --> 00:23:47.440
If none of them are like, hey, this is worthwhile.

00:23:47.440 --> 00:23:49.359
It, you know, what's the purpose of it?

00:23:49.359 --> 00:23:51.359
Why am I digging this trench?

00:23:51.359 --> 00:23:54.960
Well, we are trying to dig up the sanitary, right?

00:23:54.960 --> 00:24:04.880
Like we are trying to get infrastructure enhanced so that we can have better lives and people aren't losing cars and potholes, uh, whatever it is, right?

00:24:04.880 --> 00:24:12.559
That there is a bigger purpose for them and they're it's a worthwhile, it's a worthwhile career for them.

00:24:12.559 --> 00:24:15.759
So I know I said a lot there, but it's no, no, for sure.

00:24:15.759 --> 00:24:19.359
Anyway, go back to yours.

00:24:19.359 --> 00:24:23.279
It's one where it's like you've seen it in your career.

00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:23.839
I have.

00:24:23.839 --> 00:24:29.759
I left architecture because I was like, this there's gotta be there's gotta be a better way to do it.

00:24:29.759 --> 00:24:30.960
Started construction.

00:24:30.960 --> 00:24:41.200
So we both have, I think, experienced that there is a cost that they're feeling now as a business.

00:24:41.200 --> 00:25:01.599
And if you're thinking transactional, the way transactional leaders see it, it's like mental health, um, helping people through change, helping people understand what how to become that transformational leader, it may feel like selling the invisible to some people, preventative.

00:25:01.599 --> 00:25:14.160
But what do you feel like, hey, like why is this so important to solve and what is it costing not just that business, but the industry not solving it.

00:25:14.160 --> 00:25:21.680
Um are you talking specific to mental health or or I'm talking, think about everything that we're we're discussing here.

00:25:21.680 --> 00:25:24.960
There's the mental health, there's being a transformational leader, yeah.

00:25:24.960 --> 00:25:27.519
Um, being someone who connects to human.

00:25:27.519 --> 00:25:33.440
Go back to your original concept of connecting to the humans and understanding of it as an industry.

00:25:33.759 --> 00:25:34.000
Yeah.

00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:42.720
So I think that it this is a really important topic to have uh a conversation to have around the whole leadership piece, because we talk about the uh issues, right?

00:25:42.720 --> 00:25:49.279
Like there's the labor shortage, there's inefficiencies on site, uh, there's people losing time, there's people getting injured.

00:25:49.279 --> 00:25:53.599
But a lot of those are kind of symptoms of a bigger problem that I find.

00:25:53.599 --> 00:25:55.920
And it's it's disconnection, right?

00:25:55.920 --> 00:26:03.839
It's people, uh especially when we talk about labor shortage and mentorship and teaching people, because yeah, we have a bunch of experienced people who have the knowledge.

00:26:03.839 --> 00:26:05.599
There's a bunch of younger people coming in.

00:26:05.599 --> 00:26:08.880
You can't just smash them together and expect them to learn by osmosis.

00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:10.559
It's the same with health and safety, right?

00:26:10.559 --> 00:26:14.799
And as you were talking about different ways, different methodologies, safety came to mind.

00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:24.319
And there's videos, uh tons of videos, especially on social media, some sites uh enacted, like stretching before uh and people are making fun of it, they're mocking it.

00:26:24.319 --> 00:26:33.200
Even though there's studies and data to show musculoskeletal uh injuries are like the most common thing, and they'll take people out and they'll wreck your life if you twist your back the wrong way.

00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:38.000
So by stretching a little bit, but again, it's that change in mindset, it's that difference in uh thinking.

00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:46.480
But what it comes down to to me is just connecting with people, going back to first principles, very foundational, having a relationship with somebody.

00:26:46.480 --> 00:26:57.680
Because if you just start talking about safety or you start talking about teaching experience and you start talking about uh uh this and that processes, people aren't gonna listen.

00:26:57.680 --> 00:27:11.519
They're not gonna trust you until you have that basic foundation of a human-to-human connection built on trust, uh, likability, and uh and just you know, getting to know somebody as a human before you later on the complexities of doing business.

00:27:13.599 --> 00:27:25.519
Yeah, I love that you said that too, because I think that's you go back to Stephen Covey, you know, the speed of trust and the tax that gets paid by businesses where there is low trust.

00:27:25.519 --> 00:27:41.759
And, you know, there's stories that I have, you know, as a leader, and even in my own life, it's like, I don't know, like if I don't know this other person well enough, and when I would have people who were struggling with someone, I'd be like, when's the last time you sat and had a coffee with them?

00:27:41.759 --> 00:27:42.319
Lunch.

00:27:42.319 --> 00:27:53.440
You don't have to be best friends, but you should connect with this other human to understand how they think, how they how they learn, how they want to be communicated with.

00:27:53.440 --> 00:27:58.480
And we could talk probably all day on how technology and email has changed that.

00:27:58.480 --> 00:28:05.920
And your book does a great job of you know, this how each generation sort of likes to communicate.

00:28:05.920 --> 00:28:09.759
As a Gen Xer, I still like the mingle.

00:28:09.759 --> 00:28:17.119
I still I will I could sit and talk with somebody for hours about solving the world's problems and never see them again.

00:28:17.119 --> 00:28:31.680
That is not the younger generation, but I think emails and hiding behind the keyboard sometimes has become that that problem of that human connection piece that we have not just in the industry, but maybe I know we do in the States.

00:28:31.680 --> 00:28:40.799
So with that, as you were telling that story, it's like what as a leader now, what are you besides your books?

00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:47.599
Like, how are you telling people you know, hey, I know that this is different?

00:28:47.599 --> 00:28:49.200
They may not want to change.

00:28:49.200 --> 00:28:54.160
I got to connect it because I think your your tagline is kind of like connecting one human at a time.

00:28:54.160 --> 00:29:03.759
Like, what are some things that you've been able to, as a leader, kind of helping people start to build stronger relationships with one another?

00:29:03.759 --> 00:29:11.200
And even this is what I always say, even with themselves, of understanding themselves as it relates to change and seeing something different.

00:29:11.200 --> 00:29:15.440
Like what have you seen or been able to help others with?

00:29:15.839 --> 00:29:17.359
The biggest thing I can find.

00:29:17.359 --> 00:29:21.359
So I'm only one person, so you can only work one-on-one with so many, right?

00:29:21.359 --> 00:29:29.759
The people who report directly to me are on our team, and I get to spend more one-on-one time with, like we do weekly check-ins, which some people be like, oh, that sounds boring.

00:29:29.759 --> 00:29:31.200
But sometimes it's five minutes.

00:29:31.200 --> 00:29:33.680
If we sit down and it's like Ryan, everything okay?

00:29:33.680 --> 00:29:34.640
You say yeah.

00:29:34.640 --> 00:29:41.039
Sometimes I you say yep, and I can see it in your eyes that everything's not okay, and I'll probe a little bit, but that's just from experience and knowing.

00:29:41.039 --> 00:29:45.759
Other times I'll sit down for two hours if somebody has a lot to talk about, whether it's home or personal.

00:29:45.759 --> 00:29:55.359
But it's and what that does is it creates that space where that person feels uh safe to be who they are and be vulnerable.

00:29:55.359 --> 00:30:04.319
And I think once you open up and you break down those walls about trying to cover your ass, which have been Built up over and calloused over many years of getting shit on in construction.

00:30:04.319 --> 00:30:09.920
Once you start to break down those walls, it opens up a whole new realm of problem solving and getting stuff done.

00:30:09.920 --> 00:30:15.279
And I feel like that's where we're on the cusp right now of the generational change in the way that we lead people.

00:30:15.279 --> 00:30:22.880
Because the new leaders coming in, they're more empathetic, they're more compassionate, they're more willing to sit down with somebody and say, you know, it doesn't matter if you don't know.

00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:28.400
Yeah, I'm paying you to do a job, but I would rather have you tell me you don't know something than pretend you know it and mess it up.

00:30:28.400 --> 00:30:31.359
Because then I have to pay more to go back and fix it.

00:30:31.359 --> 00:30:36.480
So what I try and do is just create that safe space for people to be vulnerable.

00:30:36.480 --> 00:30:46.319
And saying words like this, it's language is super important because when you say words like empathy, compassion, feelings, construction folks clam up right away.

00:30:46.319 --> 00:30:53.200
That's not those aren't typical words you use, especially on a construction site.

00:30:53.200 --> 00:30:55.119
But to me, that that's what's needed.

00:30:55.119 --> 00:31:01.039
Because getting back to a point you had mentioned, there's more and more stress on the industry, right?

00:31:01.039 --> 00:31:07.599
Infrastructure is growing, the population's aging, we're gonna need more long-term care, gonna need more hospitals, immigration.

00:31:07.599 --> 00:31:10.079
I know that's a contentious issue, but you know, populations are growing.

00:31:10.079 --> 00:31:12.079
We're gonna need more roads, we need more homes.

00:31:12.079 --> 00:31:14.240
And we're getting less and less people to do it.

00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:20.240
Like when you look at the numbers, the amount of people that are coming into the industry are not gonna match those that are retiring.

00:31:20.240 --> 00:31:31.279
And that's assuming that it's a one-to-one ratio, which it isn't, because you're gonna need three people coming in to do the same amount of work as the one leaving because of the experience factor when you factor in qualitative things.

00:31:31.279 --> 00:31:35.680
So it comes down to how are we gonna do more with less?

00:31:35.680 --> 00:31:42.079
It's maximize to use like some corporate terms, it's maximizing utilization, productivity, how you do that.

00:31:42.079 --> 00:31:49.119
You make sure people have the right training, you meet them where they are, they've got the skills they need to do the job and the tools, and you equip them with the tools to do it.

00:31:49.119 --> 00:31:52.079
How are you gonna know that unless you connect with each one of them?

00:31:52.079 --> 00:31:53.200
You know what I mean?

00:31:53.200 --> 00:31:59.680
And if you're on a site with a thousand people and you're in a big corporation, obviously you can't meet with every single person.

00:31:59.680 --> 00:32:02.079
But that's where the culture piece comes in.

00:32:02.079 --> 00:32:04.160
Developing that psychological safety.

00:32:04.160 --> 00:32:08.400
So it's not just Ryan or Angelo that is the safe space, it's everybody.

00:32:08.400 --> 00:32:13.920
They can go talk to anybody in the company to solve a problem or or uh you know work together to get something done.

00:32:13.920 --> 00:32:14.559
Right.

00:32:14.559 --> 00:32:17.519
I want you to tell me if I'm living in La La Land here, Ryan.

00:32:17.519 --> 00:32:21.920
I don't know, because sometimes I tell people this and uh I can see that it's not their thing.

00:32:21.920 --> 00:32:26.480
It's definitely not for everybody, but I'm always interested to hear like the other side of the coin too.

00:32:26.640 --> 00:32:39.200
But no, I look, I've spent my career, and now I'm diving into similar to what you're doing, is like I I am only one person who can try to help other people.

00:32:39.200 --> 00:32:47.599
And I need I want them to see like my whole business is you know based on connecting the human to the change.

00:32:47.599 --> 00:33:13.279
So like you're talking, it's it's what you just said is like I want people, I want to lead people in a certain way so that they lead others in their own way, but connecting those humans to it of realizing that it's more than a job, it's more than a career, that it is another human that you're interacting with.

00:33:13.279 --> 00:33:26.319
Because when we remove the human piece, like we, you know, we tend to get in our own echo chambers and we tend to believe our own things, and and we're not actually exploring, so we're not solving any problems.

00:33:26.319 --> 00:33:32.720
And this industry has been talking about the labor shortage, which I hate the word shortage anymore.

00:33:32.720 --> 00:33:50.319
It's like it just doesn't like the labor force will be what the labor force is, and we need to figure out how to go attract the next one into it while keeping and retaining the ones we have by reconnecting them to why they got into this in the first place.

00:33:50.319 --> 00:33:51.519
That's that's me.

00:33:51.519 --> 00:33:52.400
That's how I think.

00:33:52.400 --> 00:34:04.400
But maybe I'm in La La Land too, but I'm like, hey, we've got to reach all generations realizing that all of their feelings are real.

00:34:04.400 --> 00:34:07.759
Like they are, they're human, they're allowed to have them.

00:34:07.759 --> 00:34:09.679
They're going to struggle with change.

00:34:09.679 --> 00:34:15.440
Their mind has been set into default mode in this industry for a long time.

00:34:15.440 --> 00:34:19.119
To that work then, it's gotta work now.

00:34:19.119 --> 00:34:25.440
It's too, you know, two decades, four decades, whatever it is that you just kind of rinse and repeat.

00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:54.800
But I'm trying to get people to understand is like change and understanding other humans is a choice that you have to figure out what your engagement will be with that other human or team or business in order to really evaluate what is going to be you know best for the industry as well as as well as everyone you're dealing with.

00:34:54.800 --> 00:35:17.840
So, you know, to me, it's like this is like if we don't solve this, every other industry may find other ways to connect to the humans better than us, and they are relying on this industry to provide them with healthcare, buildings for healthcare, education, housing, um, you know, name it, right?

00:35:17.840 --> 00:35:23.760
That's infrastructure, driving down the road, getting, you know, electrical taken care of, whatever it is.

00:35:23.760 --> 00:35:28.480
There's a whole world that relies on us to solve this problem.

00:35:28.480 --> 00:35:45.760
And my fear is if we don't start understanding the human side of it, as you have, as you have laid out, and kind of what I'm want people to understand is like you've from my perspective is change sucks for everybody.

00:35:45.760 --> 00:35:47.679
As you said, construction sucks.

00:35:47.679 --> 00:35:49.519
It sucks for everybody.

00:35:49.519 --> 00:36:05.760
But when you recognize it, if you're a leader who's trying to drive it, and you are working with multiple generations, that you have to have that empathy like a coach, not sympathy or anything like that.

00:36:05.760 --> 00:36:23.199
You're just empathetic to understanding how they might think about it and helping them get to the second choice of how they're going to be involved, how they're going to connect to others, how they're going to work through these things that are coming their way in the industry.

00:36:23.199 --> 00:36:23.679
Yeah.

00:36:23.679 --> 00:36:28.400
So la la land or not, I love that you're fighting the fight.

00:36:28.400 --> 00:36:29.119
Yeah.

00:36:29.360 --> 00:36:40.480
No, and it comes back, I know, as you're talking, something came to mind like humans, regardless where you're living, what state you're in, whatever, the same basic human needs, right?

00:36:40.480 --> 00:36:51.920
Once your basic things are met, like food and shelter, things like that, social inclusion, um, like those are important elements that we even overlook in construction, like especially people in the trades.

00:36:51.920 --> 00:37:04.079
When they're, you know, you take somebody on site, you know, they're thrown into conditions, say it's winter outside, uh, improper heating, they're using a porta potty outside that it's minus 30 degrees.

00:37:04.079 --> 00:37:07.679
They got to sit on another curb and eat lunch in the free, like you know what I mean?

00:37:07.679 --> 00:37:10.719
They don't have these bait, their basic human needs are not being met.

00:37:10.719 --> 00:37:21.519
But even when you kind of zoom out and look at a more macroscopic level in the same uh view, is people want to feel like they're contributing to something bigger than themselves.

00:37:21.519 --> 00:37:22.079
Okay.

00:37:22.079 --> 00:37:28.480
So painting that picture saying, look, guys, I know we're facing all these challenges right now, but this is what we're trying to do.

00:37:28.480 --> 00:37:30.400
If you're on a project, it's building a building.

00:37:30.400 --> 00:37:36.480
So if two people are fighting, it's like, okay, stop about this stupid little pipe and drywall interference you're talking about.

00:37:36.480 --> 00:37:43.440
We're trying to build a building here, and there's a thousand people on site and we're working together, and you know, you're just a small piece in the puzzle.

00:37:43.440 --> 00:37:46.159
And and I found that has worked with some people.

00:37:46.159 --> 00:37:56.079
Um and uh yeah, so just you know, addressing that, looking at the at the uh big picture, and like you said, reminding people of why they got into the industry in the first place.

00:37:56.079 --> 00:38:04.880
Because one one thing I've noticed, and I've worked at different companies, big and small, on the office side, and I'd be interested to get your experience on this too.

00:38:04.880 --> 00:38:10.159
On the office side, it's more and more experience is being replaced with education.

00:38:10.159 --> 00:38:21.679
Okay, so in construction companies, a lot of project coordinators are field level uh or low-level, I shouldn't say low-level, entry-level field roles, like field engineers, site surveyors, things like that.

00:38:21.679 --> 00:38:24.159
They come from an engineering or architecture background.

00:38:24.159 --> 00:38:25.119
Super smart.

00:38:25.119 --> 00:38:31.280
Obviously, you have to be smart to get a degree like that, but they don't have the experience of other people.

00:38:31.280 --> 00:38:39.599
And because of that, I think they always revert back to the contracts and the drawings because they don't have that personal experience to draw off of.

00:38:39.599 --> 00:38:50.239
So now there seems to be more and more of a tendency, again, on the transactional thread, of focusing on administering the contract, not building the job.

00:38:50.239 --> 00:38:57.519
And I don't know how many people got into the industry to fulfill the minimum obligations of a contract, Ryan, but that's not why I got into it.

00:38:57.519 --> 00:39:02.800
I got into the industry to build cool shit and meet nice people and make connections.

00:39:02.800 --> 00:39:13.440
So we got to keep that in mind too, like how people are coming in, um, how they're looking at the industry, what experiences they're having with their uh, you know, middle management and senior leaders.

00:39:13.440 --> 00:39:17.760
And yeah, we really got to kind of break that down and again go back to first principles.

00:39:17.760 --> 00:39:19.519
Learn how the nuts and bolts come together.

00:39:19.519 --> 00:39:22.159
Learn how, you know, start at the basics.

00:39:22.159 --> 00:39:26.079
Uh and it sucks because it's like when it's like when you're learning an instrument.

00:39:26.079 --> 00:39:28.960
You want to pick up a guitar and start playing Jimi Hendrix or something.

00:39:28.960 --> 00:39:34.559
But I'm sorry, but you have to suck for five years before you can even play uh a full song.

00:39:34.559 --> 00:39:40.960
And now we're tiptoeing on the whole instant gratification uh issues around there, which we can get into if you want.

00:39:41.280 --> 00:39:45.440
But yeah, I think it's a valid point because I think that's part of change, right?

00:39:45.440 --> 00:39:47.039
It's part of learning anything.

00:39:47.039 --> 00:39:56.000
I I've been on this kick of telling people like if you you know, give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day, teach a man to fish, he'll you know, eat for a lifetime.

00:39:56.000 --> 00:39:58.960
But the problem is people think all we're doing is fishing.

00:39:58.960 --> 00:40:02.159
It's like the whole point of it is you learn to learn.

00:40:02.159 --> 00:40:06.880
You learn that situations are going to change and you relearn and you go through this process.

00:40:06.880 --> 00:40:18.480
And I try to tell people is like, look, you change is this area where you you you make a choice, right?

00:40:18.480 --> 00:40:27.199
And you sit and you say, All right, I'm committed to doing this, and everyone wants that clarity of going through it, and that you just said instant gratification.

00:40:27.199 --> 00:40:30.000
That's not how change works.

00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:39.920
You are going to suck at it, whatever you're taking on the first time for a while, depending on how large the change is that you're trying to implement.

00:40:39.920 --> 00:40:46.239
Because your brain, your brain has already built strong habits and ruts into what you know.

00:40:46.239 --> 00:40:49.039
And a lot of people, we can get into this.

00:40:49.039 --> 00:40:52.639
A lot of people get stuck into that known area of like, I can't release it.

00:40:52.639 --> 00:40:53.599
I've always known it.

00:40:53.599 --> 00:40:54.800
It's too valuable.

00:40:54.800 --> 00:40:58.159
Well, that is hurting you.

00:40:58.159 --> 00:41:06.639
That is impacting you, it's impacting your team, it's impacting the industry of whatever it is, whatever part of the industry that you happen to be in.

00:41:06.639 --> 00:41:23.920
By not understanding this middle area of growth is actually your, that's your education, that's your rebirth, it's the rebuilding of construction where we go through this moment of like, it's okay to be wrong, it's okay to be learning, it's okay because we're doing it together.

00:41:24.079 --> 00:41:24.400
Yeah.

00:41:24.719 --> 00:41:27.679
And some people will pick it up faster.

00:41:27.679 --> 00:41:29.119
That's okay.

00:41:29.119 --> 00:41:41.039
Like we tend to want it to be immediate, and that's why we overvalue the current state because it's like, it's too painful.

00:41:41.039 --> 00:41:46.880
And I don't get me started, you know, I don't want to get into this too deep, but it's like the word disruption, disruption, disruption.

00:41:46.880 --> 00:41:48.079
Well, that has cost to it.

00:41:48.079 --> 00:41:58.320
So people tend to push those solutions aside because they think, oh, I'm more, you know, it's too painful for me to go through that.

00:41:58.320 --> 00:42:00.480
Well, it's change.

00:42:00.480 --> 00:42:04.480
Change does not happen to you, it happens with you.

00:42:04.480 --> 00:42:23.039
And if you're unwilling to be a participant in that change, it's going to become more painful than actually just accepting it and making that second choice of what, where is my commitment level and and how can I build action steps to get to that?

00:42:23.039 --> 00:42:36.800
So I maybe got a little off topic, but I think when you said, hey, instant gratification, I think that's why as we get a little older, we become kind of a conservative area of our lives.

00:42:36.800 --> 00:42:38.719
Like, I don't want to take that risk as my business.

00:42:38.719 --> 00:42:44.320
I can lose everything, opposed to another generation coming in and like, I have my whole career ahead of me.

00:42:44.320 --> 00:42:47.119
I want to see change very fast.

00:42:47.119 --> 00:42:50.400
And the answer is it's it's actually in the middle somewhere.

00:42:50.400 --> 00:42:59.360
It's in this area of getting all parties aligned into what it is you're going to take on.

00:42:59.360 --> 00:43:22.880
Um, and be it in this case that we're going to be more, you know, as a team, open to that human side, open to conversations, open to creating a psychological safety where we get to give input, we have the freedom to learn, we have the freedom to test, as you were saying, where you can't walk out of school and and know it all.

00:43:22.880 --> 00:43:30.000
Um, and I think you talked a little about this in your book, so you can you can kind of hit on this is that that mentoring up and down, right?

00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:32.159
Which is a big thing with the technology.

00:43:32.159 --> 00:44:01.039
But I just think the cost, you know, from my perspective and what you're saying is like if we don't connect it, the cost is enormous to not only the industry, to the individuals in the industry, but you know, to an entire nation in some cases or region, because we're not willing to look at the problem for what it is and and start to connect ourselves to it and connect others uh to it as well.

00:44:01.440 --> 00:44:01.760
Yeah.

00:44:01.760 --> 00:44:03.440
And it is a tough concept.

00:44:03.440 --> 00:44:04.800
Like you mentioned this earlier on.

00:44:04.800 --> 00:44:06.079
It's it's really hard to quantify.

00:44:06.079 --> 00:44:08.960
Like, how do you quantify change and the impacts of change?

00:44:08.960 --> 00:44:11.920
But like it's pretty clear in some studies I've seen.

00:44:11.920 --> 00:44:30.000
Like there was one study I saw, and it was something like $13 billion a year in the US alone is is uh wasted due to uh inaccurate information, miscommunication of drawings or or essentially rework, whether it's somebody not training somebody well enough, not providing the right information at the right time.

00:44:30.000 --> 00:44:39.599
So I mean that one stat right there is like you know the cost of not changing things because we keep keep continue to be ramming uh the system down people's throats.

00:44:39.599 --> 00:44:50.719
And uh I I want to talk about change for a minute because that's it's that's what was coming to mind as you were talking, because and it's easy to fall into a dichotomy of like older versus younger.

00:44:50.719 --> 00:44:51.920
All right, you know what I mean?

00:44:51.920 --> 00:44:59.599
The old generation, they just think that all younger kids are entitled tricks and they just want to be on their phone, they don't want to listen, they don't want to put in the hard work.

00:44:59.599 --> 00:45:06.239
And then you talk to the younger people and they're like, well, these old guys are just gatekeeping and they want still want to feel relevant and they don't want to pass the torch.

00:45:06.239 --> 00:45:19.039
It's like, okay, guys, understand that from both perspectives, but the transformational leadership element and the people who are gonna make a difference in the industry are gonna say, we got to meet in the middle and find a way to connect those two.

00:45:19.039 --> 00:45:27.519
Because when you have those uh uh disagreements between those older and younger people and both sides throw their hands up in the air and walk away, what's solved there, right?

00:45:27.760 --> 00:45:28.159
Right.

00:45:28.400 --> 00:45:36.000
It's uh and the whole short-term thing is a challenge that I see uh because I work with a lot of younger people.

00:45:36.000 --> 00:45:40.239
I love working with younger people and and seeing their perspective on things and hearing their questions.

00:45:40.239 --> 00:45:46.159
But a lot of what we get is you sit down and you say, Okay, well, where do you want to be in five years or whatever?

00:45:46.159 --> 00:45:48.320
This is somebody like at a university.

00:45:48.320 --> 00:45:51.760
Oh, uh, you know, senior PM or like a director.

00:45:51.760 --> 00:46:00.800
I'm like, okay, good to have the ambition and good to want to get there, but it takes time to get to that level.

00:46:00.800 --> 00:46:05.519
And the issue that poses is to get to that level, people will jump companies.

00:46:05.519 --> 00:46:07.920
And I've been guilty of myself in the past.

00:46:07.920 --> 00:46:17.039
You spend a year somewhere as a junior coordinator, somebody else is offering an extra 10 G's at a as a coordinator or a senior, and so you make the jump.

00:46:17.039 --> 00:46:17.519
Okay.

00:46:17.519 --> 00:46:21.920
Because that person offered that title and that pay because they were short on people and they needed it.

00:46:21.920 --> 00:46:25.360
But the person they brought on isn't capable of operating at that level.

00:46:25.360 --> 00:46:26.239
You know what I mean?

00:46:26.239 --> 00:46:36.639
So then that person, you know, does the same thing a year later, and then all of a sudden they're at a at a mid-level management and they never really had the experience they needed to succeed as the people they're managing.

00:46:36.639 --> 00:46:38.559
So that presents a different challenge too.

00:46:38.559 --> 00:46:47.840
How and and you touched on it as well, but how are we going to retain people like that that want to see a career progression and want to move ahead and will be good in the industry just not yet?

00:46:47.840 --> 00:46:50.000
So you want to hang on to them and not lose them.

00:46:50.000 --> 00:47:02.159
So to me, retention, change management, or change management and and uh figuring out how that loops into retention is probably the most critical skill now of any management or leadership in a company.

00:47:02.159 --> 00:47:17.280
It's like, how are we going to find a way to bridge the old generation and the new generation to keep these older guys on board because we need them, but also keep these younger people interested in staying in the industry and graduating up because there's no sense in them coming and leaving.

00:47:17.280 --> 00:47:19.519
And you you touched on it too.

00:47:19.519 --> 00:47:22.079
There's obviously a cost to doing that, right?

00:47:22.079 --> 00:47:27.360
And the cost is extra time because it takes time to coach, it takes time to mentor.

00:47:27.360 --> 00:47:29.119
And people say, Oh, I'm so busy.

00:47:29.119 --> 00:47:36.079
And because there's so few of those senior people who are capable of running those jobs and doing those tasks, they don't have the time to do it.

00:47:36.079 --> 00:47:38.559
And oh, it's gonna cost extra money and we're gonna slow down.

00:47:38.559 --> 00:47:40.239
But what's the cost of not doing it?

00:47:40.239 --> 00:47:42.400
Because you're not filling that pipeline.

00:47:42.400 --> 00:47:51.360
And you might be doing okay now, but in five years, when that guy retires and you never wanted to have him spend time with other people because he was busy, nobody else can do his job.

00:47:51.360 --> 00:47:54.239
So now you're uh uh so now you're suffering.

00:47:54.239 --> 00:47:56.960
So it's an interesting balance, man.

00:47:56.960 --> 00:48:06.239
I don't claim to have all the answers, but even just having conversations like this, I think we need to get more people talking about this stuff to say, to see what's gonna work and what's not gonna work.

00:48:06.239 --> 00:48:09.440
Because, like you said, when you try something, change is scary, it might not work.

00:48:09.440 --> 00:48:11.360
And in the beginning, it seems like it's not working.

00:48:11.360 --> 00:48:19.199
Well, sorry, another another thing uh that that popped in my head was the higher you go up in a company, the longer it takes to impact that change.

00:48:19.199 --> 00:48:21.599
The bigger the changes overall, but the longer it takes.

00:48:21.599 --> 00:48:32.400
So I remember as a project coordinator, I would get a task that I could be done in five minutes and I could cross off my list and it felt really good and I could see the email that I sent out or the shop drawing I submitted.

00:48:32.400 --> 00:48:42.159
But then you move up as a project manager and you're assigning these tasks, you won't see the effects of that for a couple months or six months or a year down the road when the project's done.

00:48:42.159 --> 00:48:47.519
But then when you get into leadership in a company and you're talking about strategy, it takes years for this stuff to come.

00:48:47.519 --> 00:48:54.880
But at each level, you've gotten used to the quickness and the results, immediate results in some cases.

00:48:54.880 --> 00:49:02.559
And then you combine that with people's attention spans these days and five second TikToks and these short uh, you know, instant gratification.

00:49:02.559 --> 00:49:10.079
It we have to change the way, I'll go as far as to say how we uh compensate our people, how we promote our people.

00:49:10.079 --> 00:49:21.599
Maybe you need to have instead of two levels as a junior PC, senior PC, you need to have 10 levels and say once you hit this check mark and you do these tasks, you get a little salary bump and you get get up to level two or whatever.

00:49:21.599 --> 00:49:23.360
And then people can say, Oh yeah, that feels good.

00:49:23.360 --> 00:49:28.480
I got a little dopamine hit and I'm gonna continue, I'm gonna stay with this company because there's eight more levels.

00:49:28.480 --> 00:49:30.880
Uh just spitballing ideas now.

00:49:30.960 --> 00:49:53.440
But no, I I'm glad you added a lot of a lot of those points because I think, you know, as someone that's you know led teams and companies, I used to say when people wanted a title or or whatever change, I'm like, a title is is a barrier to your own belief system of what you're capable of.

00:49:53.440 --> 00:49:55.440
I don't like titles.

00:49:55.440 --> 00:50:04.800
I I you have to have them, I get them, and the pay structures are there, but I think a lot of times it's like there there's the extrinsic motivation versus the intrinsic, right?

00:50:04.800 --> 00:50:25.519
You got into dopamine hit and kind of that instant gratification, and it's it's tying these humans back to the purpose of why they're kind of there in the first place, and and and developing a skill set, like you said, along a task and a path in which they feel they're hitting their purpose and their passion in the industry.

00:50:25.519 --> 00:50:30.000
And that that's just my opinion on the titles.

00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:33.920
It's like we built maybe, maybe we went too far with it.

00:50:33.920 --> 00:50:36.000
I think you're right, maybe there's more tears.

00:50:36.000 --> 00:50:38.719
But for me, I was always like, look, I I want to be an architect.

00:50:38.719 --> 00:50:41.119
It was never how do I move up?

00:50:41.119 --> 00:50:42.000
How do I get this?

00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:48.159
I literally was like, okay, I need to learn estimate, I need to learn this, I need to learn how to lead people, all of these things in order to come there.

00:50:48.159 --> 00:50:53.440
There was no, I wasn't looking for that, but not every individual is that way.

00:50:53.440 --> 00:51:16.400
So I think there is a combination of how do we do it so that people are paid appropriately for the levels in which they're learning and they have those hits to stay in it, where you, like you said, from a dopamine standpoint to stay in the industry, but getting them back to that intrinsic piece of you're choosing this because why?

00:51:16.400 --> 00:51:18.079
Why is it important to you?

00:51:18.079 --> 00:51:25.599
And then back to the cost piece, it's like I would say it's not costless to ignore it.

00:51:25.599 --> 00:51:31.039
Like if we if we ignore it, there we're paying a price for it.

00:51:31.039 --> 00:51:42.960
And that pie that that paying of that price is actually where we see you know more more things happening, especially from an architecture standpoint, because I'll just talk in my lane.

00:51:42.960 --> 00:51:47.760
I don't want to be as an architect, I didn't want to see things taken out of the design, right?

00:51:47.760 --> 00:51:58.880
I didn't want to see it like I had a if I had a specific design and a contractor was like, hey, we got to value engineer this, it was like, well, I don't want I don't want to value engineer that.

00:51:58.880 --> 00:52:01.840
That's so important to the experience or whatever, right?

00:52:01.840 --> 00:52:03.360
Pick that piece.

00:52:03.360 --> 00:52:15.039
Like those expenses that you're we're paying for as an industry are actually putting out a worse product in the end of a design.

00:52:15.039 --> 00:52:20.960
Or how you know what we're capable of building, because we're not solving it.

00:52:20.960 --> 00:52:23.440
And you said before, like the utilization.

00:52:23.440 --> 00:52:31.039
I my belief is that we need to get the cost of construction down and the improvement of what we're designing and building up.

00:52:31.039 --> 00:52:43.039
And we can do that with all of these technologies and things if we are able to connect the humans to it and start finding different ways to work together to collaborate.

00:52:43.039 --> 00:53:04.800
And we could I we don't have to get into this, but I always think like design build or uh integrated project delivery models, those types of things, to where you're bringing all these different mindsets and skill sets into a collaborative area to learn from one another, to go through that process together in order to achieve one project.

00:53:04.800 --> 00:53:13.039
So talk about having differences of opinions in one room, those models do that.

00:53:13.039 --> 00:53:22.800
They drive, drive that collaboration, they drive that human connection to to think through some of those things in order to solve it.

00:53:22.800 --> 00:53:27.440
So I know I'm saying a lot and thinking through it.

00:53:27.440 --> 00:53:29.519
I'm like, man, I want to solve it now.

00:53:29.519 --> 00:53:31.599
As I'm thinking about it.

00:53:32.000 --> 00:53:37.360
It's uh it the issues we're facing now, they they've developed over generations, right?

00:53:37.360 --> 00:53:39.599
We use that term before, it's generational things.

00:53:39.599 --> 00:53:42.320
And it's gonna take a long time to turn things around.

00:53:42.320 --> 00:53:47.920
It's I'm seeing it now, slow and steady, but the industry is so massive, it's just gonna take time.

00:53:47.920 --> 00:53:57.199
And I've been on jobs, I've done design build, I've done IPD, I've done uh P3, uh, I've done all types, lump sum, like standard step sum things.

00:53:57.199 --> 00:54:03.519
And it's I don't know if people in construction truly understand the word collaboration.

00:54:03.519 --> 00:54:07.039
I don't know, uh Ryan, if it exists in the construction vocabulary.

00:54:07.039 --> 00:54:24.000
It's almost like I was trying to think of analogies because I love analogy, but if you bring uh uh a person who's seasoned and ex in in in traditional construction, which has just been designed, bid build, and they're used to just fighting tooth and nail for changes and going back for change orders and that.

00:54:24.000 --> 00:54:31.840
It's um and then you bring them to an IPD job, it's almost like bringing a uh a meat eater to a vegetarian restaurant or something.

00:54:31.840 --> 00:54:33.280
They they won't know what to do.

00:54:33.280 --> 00:54:36.400
They're looking at the menu, being like, yeah, this is food.

00:54:36.400 --> 00:54:43.119
I see it's food, but like I don't know what to like what's this edamame and uh and tofu?

00:54:43.119 --> 00:54:45.760
Like a so and it's almost like a different language.

00:54:45.760 --> 00:54:53.840
So uh but you need those people with the experience to make those IPDs and those Psy successful because they're based on contractor experience.

00:54:53.840 --> 00:54:59.519
You're leverag you, it's early engagement and you're leveraging the contractor's engagement throughout the design process.

00:54:59.519 --> 00:55:01.840
So I think those are that's the way to go for the future.

00:55:01.840 --> 00:55:04.719
Just collaboration is the current currency of the future to me.

00:55:04.719 --> 00:55:10.320
But again, it goes back to the mindset and creating that space to facilitate that collaboration.

00:55:10.320 --> 00:55:11.679
Because people are taught.

00:55:11.679 --> 00:55:16.320
I remember I worked for a company and it was part of their onboarding.

00:55:16.320 --> 00:55:19.920
The second day on site is when you prepare your first delay claim.

00:55:19.920 --> 00:55:23.599
That is literally, you know, that that that was the methodology.

00:55:23.599 --> 00:55:28.639
Just go put your box and gloves on and beat the crap out of each other, squeeze an extra 2% of the job.

00:55:28.639 --> 00:55:31.840
But how who who wins in the long run on that?

00:55:31.840 --> 00:55:33.360
That gets you the short wins.

00:55:33.360 --> 00:55:35.280
That gets you that extra 2% on the job.

00:55:35.280 --> 00:55:43.039
But is that owner gonna want to enter into a contract, a collaborative contract with you the next time, knowing that you just beat the shit out of them for the last five years?

00:55:43.039 --> 00:55:43.840
You know what I mean?

00:55:43.840 --> 00:55:49.280
So that's what really bothered me was a lot of people I've worked with are just focused on the short term.

00:55:49.280 --> 00:55:50.960
We got to do well on this project.

00:55:50.960 --> 00:55:53.039
We've got to use this person while we have them.

00:55:53.039 --> 00:55:55.920
It's like, I'm thinking like bigger picture here, guys.

00:55:55.920 --> 00:56:01.360
Like, right maybe because I have 20 years left in my career, but I'm not thinking about the projects I'm working on now.

00:56:01.360 --> 00:56:08.960
I'm thinking about the next project and the net project after that and how I want to help grow the company and the impact I want to have on the industry.

00:56:08.960 --> 00:56:20.880
And not everybody thinks like that, but I think if we all took that little tidbit and tried to make the industry a little bit better every single day, imagine the impact that would have if everybody took that thought to work tomorrow.

00:56:20.880 --> 00:56:27.039
It would have massive impact because there's millions and millions of people that work in the industry in US and Canada alone.

00:56:27.440 --> 00:56:27.760
Right.

00:56:27.760 --> 00:56:31.280
Exponential growth through one step and action item at a time.

00:56:31.280 --> 00:56:32.639
And I'm glad you said that.

00:56:32.639 --> 00:56:35.440
It's it there, you know, there's eight and a half to ten million here.

00:56:35.440 --> 00:56:39.440
What I don't know if you got a million and a half to two there in Canada.

00:56:39.440 --> 00:56:41.039
And it's you're right.

00:56:41.039 --> 00:56:44.960
Like I think a lot of times we think, well, that problem's too big for me to get involved in.

00:56:44.960 --> 00:56:47.599
So I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna push it to the side.

00:56:47.599 --> 00:56:57.119
And I hearing you say it too, it's like, hey, we just take look at one thing, question it, and take an action.

00:56:57.119 --> 00:57:00.639
Like, what action could you take to start to improve it?

00:57:00.639 --> 00:57:08.000
Even if you are retiring in a month, what legacy are you aiming to leave when you walk out?

00:57:08.000 --> 00:57:09.679
I mean, I'm like you.

00:57:09.679 --> 00:57:17.440
It's like I've got what, 20, well, maybe not 20, quite 20 years left, but yeah, I want to leave an impact.

00:57:17.440 --> 00:57:22.079
I am not thinking short-term transactional piece of a project.

00:57:22.079 --> 00:57:25.679
It is what did we learn like a laboratory?

00:57:25.679 --> 00:57:29.280
This may have gone wrong on this case, but it doesn't mean it was a wrong answer.

00:57:29.280 --> 00:57:34.960
It's just putting us closer to a right one in the future as we're working towards something.

00:57:34.960 --> 00:57:42.719
So with that, I you know, uh we could go on forever, but I want to ask you then, you know, you've said 20 years.

00:57:42.719 --> 00:57:45.920
I I said I got probably maybe 15, maybe 22 now.

00:57:45.920 --> 00:57:55.440
What like if you were not in a crystal ball, but what is that successful thing for you?

00:57:55.440 --> 00:58:02.639
If you're looking, you know, 20 years from now and you've got your books out, you know, you've made your impact.

00:58:02.639 --> 00:58:04.000
What is that?

00:58:04.000 --> 00:58:08.800
What do you telling, you know, the next generations that are coming in?

00:58:08.800 --> 00:58:10.880
Whatever they are, it's not gonna be Z.

00:58:10.880 --> 00:58:11.760
I don't even know.

00:58:11.760 --> 00:58:12.719
What do they call it now?

00:58:12.719 --> 00:58:13.760
Um Alpha.

00:58:13.760 --> 00:58:14.239
I don't know.

00:58:14.239 --> 00:58:16.960
I don't know how the word Greek letters work.

00:58:16.960 --> 00:58:17.760
Right.

00:58:17.760 --> 00:58:20.079
It's it's beta, like whatever it is, right?

00:58:20.079 --> 00:58:25.519
What does Angelo want them to be experiencing?

00:58:27.119 --> 00:58:35.760
I think uh I just want them to feel welcome in construction, regardless of your background, regardless of your experience.

00:58:35.760 --> 00:58:39.360
And we're not getting into gender or ethnicity or anything like that.

00:58:39.360 --> 00:58:45.519
Just regardless of who you are, I want you to want to be in the industry and I want you to feel valued.

00:58:45.519 --> 00:58:51.599
And to me, if and I want you to contribute and and to your personal and professional development to you.

00:58:51.599 --> 00:58:58.079
If they can check off those things to me, that that's a successful either you know, employee or any person in the industry.

00:58:58.079 --> 00:59:01.519
Um I don't know if that's too wishy-washy for you, Ryan.

00:59:02.719 --> 00:59:07.360
It is not it is not not not wishy, because you again it's human.

00:59:07.360 --> 00:59:26.000
Like I think everyone could listen to this and be like, these guys are they're being a little sappy, but it's like I I wanted my employees to always feel like I was helping them to be whatever version of themselves they wanted them to be, right?

00:59:26.000 --> 00:59:27.760
So just like you just said.

00:59:27.760 --> 00:59:33.679
And I and I'm glad you shared that because I think who wouldn't want that?

00:59:33.679 --> 00:59:36.400
Who wouldn't want it right now, right?

00:59:36.400 --> 00:59:59.679
Like who wouldn't want to walk out knowing that they've left, you know, they're leaving in one month, that they've left something to where that next group of leadership to those individuals that are in that company felt like that person was always there, understood me, um, realized what I was capable of and what other people were capable of.

01:00:00.320 --> 01:00:04.239
Yeah, I mean and it's not all warm and fuzzy, let's hold hands and sing Kumba.

01:00:04.239 --> 01:00:04.559
Yeah.

01:00:04.559 --> 01:00:12.800
If you when you look, when you put the business lens on it, and you take an employee who feels valued, feels welcome, can show up as their authentic self.

01:00:12.800 --> 01:00:22.559
And then you take an employee who has to hide that they, you know, might be missing their kids' soccer game because they had to work and they didn't want to look like a pansy for asking for the day off.

01:00:22.559 --> 01:00:27.679
Or like, which one is more likely to succeed as an individual and and help your company succeed?

01:00:27.679 --> 01:00:30.400
Which one's more likely to show up at work and give it their all?

01:00:30.400 --> 01:00:36.880
Which one's more likely to come and take time out to help a coworker to teach them or or just help them on a task?

01:00:36.880 --> 01:00:48.800
So it it yeah, it it's it's helping people feel good at a core individual element, but it helps to facilitate that collaboration and helping people perform their best, going back to utilization productivity.

01:00:49.679 --> 01:00:50.320
Yeah.

01:00:50.320 --> 01:00:57.679
I mean, that's uh that's a great point on the on the transformational side that I you know, transactions are going to happen.

01:00:57.679 --> 01:01:06.239
And if people were valued, if they feel they're valued, if they feel like they're giving everything that they can and they're driven to that purpose, the transactions will improve.

01:01:06.239 --> 01:01:10.559
Because they will develop skill sets, they'll develop it, they'll pass that down.

01:01:10.559 --> 01:01:19.360
And, you know, I had a had recently was talking to a fractional CFO on on the podcast, and we were talking about how we need every business to be successful.

01:01:19.360 --> 01:01:20.559
They have to make money.

01:01:20.559 --> 01:01:22.000
Like we want to see that.

01:01:22.000 --> 01:01:28.480
So it's the same case as every individual inside this industry from a transformational standpoint.

01:01:28.480 --> 01:01:45.440
We need them to feel that they are contributing and successful and growing, and not only, you know, in their own careers and businesses, but that there is someone healing in a hospital, there is someone going through potentially into life care, whatever it is, right?

01:01:45.440 --> 01:01:54.880
Or you flip side, it's a school with young students in there learning about the next amazing thing that that the world might might need to take on.

01:01:54.880 --> 01:02:01.119
So going back to that purpose, like you're saying, like that's ultimately the human connection.

01:02:01.119 --> 01:02:11.119
And and you know, to to wrap up, then I I I'm so grateful that you had a moment where you were like, look, this is worth it, right?

01:02:11.119 --> 01:02:22.159
It's worth writing the book, you know, first book, but to get in the second one and and start developing and working with those within your team and others and getting your voice out.

01:02:22.159 --> 01:02:25.199
So I'm appreciative that you're you're out there doing that.

01:02:25.199 --> 01:02:29.280
Um, and I love your story and everything that you're sharing.

01:02:29.280 --> 01:02:33.280
Um so with that, I just want to make sure, like, what what would you say then?

01:02:33.280 --> 01:02:44.639
What is the next step you would tell somebody who was sitting and listening like that they they can think about or they could do um that you feel would be impactful?

01:02:45.440 --> 01:02:52.000
So the number one thing I tell people, and this is anybody but leaders especially, is change is coming.

01:02:52.000 --> 01:02:57.119
You can either force yourself to change or you can be forced into it by the change.

01:02:57.119 --> 01:02:59.599
Either way it's gonna be uncomfortable.

01:02:59.599 --> 01:03:05.519
But there's one that's you'll you'll suffer a lot less, and that's embracing it, getting ahead of it, accepting it.

01:03:05.519 --> 01:03:06.800
We live in a world of change.

01:03:06.800 --> 01:03:09.119
Every every day changes AI, all this stuff.

01:03:09.119 --> 01:03:11.599
But there is a change coming in the construction industry.

01:03:11.599 --> 01:03:14.000
So find it a productive way to be part of that.

01:03:14.000 --> 01:03:15.840
Uh don't fight it.

01:03:15.840 --> 01:03:23.119
You don't have to agree with it, but it's just embracing it and uh you know finding a way to live with it because uh change is the only constant.

01:03:23.119 --> 01:03:26.400
So that's my my number one advice for anybody these days.

01:03:27.679 --> 01:03:28.639
Well, good.

01:03:28.639 --> 01:03:30.079
Thanks for sharing that piece.

01:03:30.079 --> 01:03:31.360
I think that is important.

01:03:31.360 --> 01:03:33.679
Um, change is the one constant.

01:03:33.679 --> 01:03:38.559
So Angelo, it's been uh it's been an honor kind of talking through this with you.

01:03:38.559 --> 01:03:40.400
We just scratched the surface.

01:03:40.400 --> 01:03:53.360
Uh this you know, the podcast is called Activating Curiosity because we just need people to be energized um to to start taking those action steps, as you just said, like be ready to take on that change.

01:03:53.360 --> 01:04:05.440
So I will be sharing all of your information, um, links to your to your books and ways they can reach out to you, should they want to connect and follow you on Instagram, uh, LinkedIn, and other platforms.

01:04:05.440 --> 01:04:09.519
So I appreciate your time and appreciate you sharing your story and your message.

01:04:09.920 --> 01:04:11.119
Thanks for having me on, Ryan.

01:04:11.119 --> 01:04:19.039
I appreciate what you're doing too, because we need more people like uh like you in the industry challenging uh you know the mindset and driving this change.

01:04:19.039 --> 01:04:19.920
So thank you too.

01:04:19.920 --> 01:04:20.719
Appreciate you.

01:04:21.039 --> 01:04:21.519
Well, good.

01:04:21.519 --> 01:04:23.280
I'm sure we'll be talking soon.

01:04:23.280 --> 01:04:25.360
And uh thanks for being on.

01:04:25.360 --> 01:04:29.599
So that is the episode with Angelo Suntrees.

01:04:29.599 --> 01:04:32.320
Um phenomenal conversation.

01:04:32.320 --> 01:04:36.719
Someone who has spent an entire career in construction.

01:04:36.719 --> 01:04:46.639
He told you his backstory of where he thought as a child he'd go some other direction, but ended up heading into the construction world.

01:04:46.639 --> 01:04:47.920
But he saw a problem.

01:04:47.920 --> 01:04:54.559
He saw a problem worth diving into while still maintaining an entire career.

01:04:54.559 --> 01:05:00.400
And I know we've talked a lot in some of these podcasts about problems that seem too big.

01:05:00.400 --> 01:05:02.239
Like, I can't get involved with it.

01:05:02.239 --> 01:05:03.039
It's just too much.

01:05:03.039 --> 01:05:05.280
And we talked about it on the episode.

01:05:05.280 --> 01:05:19.760
But here is one person who's saying, I value this so much that I'm willing to give effort into trying to solve it, knowing that it is going to take time.

01:05:19.760 --> 01:05:26.079
It's going to take more than him, it's going to take more than myself in this podcast.

01:05:26.079 --> 01:06:00.800
That it's going to take, you know, in the US, eight and a half to ten million of us taking steps, finding action steps that we feel could be beneficial if we dive in and start taking this, in order to start connecting the humans to one another and start connecting the humans to the change and having that empathy and compassion that we talked about, without it being this, you know, area where we tense up, or the area where we feel like, well, that's just not how construction works.

01:06:00.800 --> 01:06:02.880
Well, why doesn't it work that way?

01:06:02.880 --> 01:06:05.199
I mean, things have changed.

01:06:05.199 --> 01:06:06.719
Situations have changed.

01:06:06.719 --> 01:06:09.840
Life will always evolve.

01:06:09.840 --> 01:06:16.480
And that's part of it, is that just because the situation is changing doesn't mean that you're becoming irrelevant.

01:06:16.480 --> 01:06:24.800
It just means that you're human and that you don't recognize something because it's it's out of the abnormal.

01:06:24.800 --> 01:06:27.679
It's not something that you're used to.

01:06:27.679 --> 01:06:33.519
So this is going to be a consistent conversation on this podcast.

01:06:33.519 --> 01:06:43.119
Focusing on mental health, focusing on our mindsets, focusing on the way we're going to address some of the biggest challenges in the industry.

01:06:43.119 --> 01:06:59.679
And what Angelo is is focused on in writing his books, you know, as an author, spending that time, I recommend, you know, taking a look at those, reading them, listening to them wherever and however you you want to do that, and sharing it with your team.

01:06:59.679 --> 01:07:01.280
But he gave you some action steps.

01:07:01.280 --> 01:07:06.079
He said, hey, look, have one conversation with one person.

01:07:06.079 --> 01:07:07.760
Try to find out more.

01:07:07.760 --> 01:07:13.039
And him and I talked about it after that there's got to be something bigger that we're doing.

01:07:13.039 --> 01:07:18.000
Um, that there's more that we want to do as individuals to address this.

01:07:18.000 --> 01:07:21.760
So I hope you enjoyed the conversation.

01:07:21.760 --> 01:07:27.039
It was uh it was a longer conversation than I think we could have gone on for for a very long time.

01:07:27.039 --> 01:07:31.760
Um and I'm sure that we'll continue it in some other form or fashion.

01:07:31.760 --> 01:07:41.679
Um so until next time, I hope you continue to look at those challenges that you've been looking at for a long time and you break them down.

01:07:41.679 --> 01:07:50.079
Break them down into steps that you can start to take, realizing that it isn't going to be instant, that this change isn't going to happen overnight.

01:07:50.079 --> 01:07:58.159
But that you find some way to address them and that you continue to find ways to activate your curiosity.

01:08:00.400 --> 01:08:08.639
The Activating Curiosity Podcast is brought to you by Connected Building Connective Coaching part of the Curiosity Building Experience.

01:08:08.639 --> 01:08:12.079
If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe.

01:08:12.079 --> 01:08:13.760
Don't remember the commentate.

01:08:13.760 --> 01:08:17.840
Share the podcast with the network for curiosity.

01:08:17.840 --> 01:08:28.000
If you're interested in becoming a guest for a sponsor, visit us at activating curiosity.com for more details.

01:08:28.000 --> 01:08:31.279
Until next time, keep leading with curiosity.